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βWhen you are dead, you do not know you are dead.
It's only painful & difficult for others.
The same applies when you are stupid.β
-Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Philipe Geluck
βWhen you are a bot, you do not know you are a bot.
It only makes meaningful engagement in Warpcast painful and difficult for you.
The same applies when you are a human without a Power Badge.β
-Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Β Edward Carpenter
On Monday, I was a bot, but I did not know it.
I did the things which a human might do β I bought Warps and started a channel, /writeonchain - minted art from frends, liked and commented on the same. I posted photos of landscapes and my foster kittens.
I created memes from scratch, bought a subscription NFT to the /memes channel using HyperSub, and complained to @nonlinear.eth via DM when it did not work as promised to lift my ridiculuous contributions from the obscurity of slums of βRecentβ to the hallowed halls of βMain.β
I created a Paragraph account, wrote a long article on the advantages of various Web3 writing platforms, and cross-posted it to my other Web3 writing platforms. I got scolded for my wife for spending too much time doing things that were NOT querying blurbs for my upcoming book IRL. I posted a photo of the blurbs I needed to send out in /commitments, and then I got 3/2 done and ended up watching Bridgerton. Extraordinarily non-algorithmic and illogical behavior for a bot, I admit β but I didnβt know any better.
Then, out of curiosity about why my casts seemed to have such low reach, I tried the βBot or Notβ action β and the βgoodβ bot explained the problem. I was a bot β a bad bot.
Maybe it was right! Maybe I was not human β because my first reaction was:
So, I queried the wise humans and powerful humans on the platform with a post in /founders and a query to the creator of Bot or Not.
I got some useful feedback from my friend Kristin:
But I got no response from @sayangel or anyone else in /botornot β rude, yes?
Well, no.
I happened to check my DM βrequestsβ a few days later.
Another βgoodβ bot had decided that the original βgoodβ botβs DM to me was the work of a βbadβ bot and had hidden it.
Well, OK⦠and that bot had decided that I was still a bad bot. But I could prove my humanity with a short CAPTCHA, so, existential crisis solved, right?
Wrong.
One of the several problems with the Warpcast app on Android is that clicking on the solution box in the CAPTCHA screen closed out the screen on the Android app.
In the Ash-botβs mind, I would remain a bad bot until I could get to my laptop.
In my own world, I was busy nursing my wife through COVID, battling my own COVID caught as a result of the same, taking care of 3 foster kittens, and looking at a small farm where I wanted to grow sustainable vegetables.
Satisfying the Ash-botβs curiosity would have to wait.
When I finally did get back to my laptop, I easily completed the CAPTCHA, and was told that I was a real boy (Pinocchio will be so jealous, I thought) β but my casts were still bland.
It seemed the Ash-bot was capable of subjective judgments. How very human.
But I didnβt have a lot of time to process my emotions β I was behind on writing a second post for the /writinghackathon about how to reach (and retain) the large Non-Farcaster audience β and one of the key issues, I thought, was how the current Warpcast system of Power Badges, $DEGEN tip distribution mechanics, the Main/Recent channel splits, and the erroneous labeling of some humans as bots needed to be tweaked in order to make the ecosystem more attractive to outsiders β and to make it a place where they would stay once onboarded.
I had some great discussions with @danicaswanson on the topic β all while doing more human things like testing negative for COVID, going to WICKED, nominating awesome female friends for an emergent NFT project, and keeping my streak in /itookaphoto going.
Apparently, my convo with Danica sparked some interest.
Iβd suggested tweaking the PB system (currently driven, it seemed, by an algorithm no more transparent than any other social media algo) by giving current PB holders a time-bounded drip of PBs which they could award to accounts with whom they regularly interacted and derived value.
My suggestion did not sit well with some human PB holders.
My reply was that there was a βcircular logic / Basttlestar Galactica problem here. We have PB accounts to weed out bots, but we know some PB accounts ARE bots. So we can't implement protocols more likely to bring in more human PB accounts because more bots might get in.β
That, I was told, was just the downside of being early. Me, a smol, non-badged account should not worry about such things and should just βFocus on helping the interesting accs to get their PBs instead.β
But it is, I observed,
I did get something useful out of this conversation β links to a guide for new users to better understand the ecosystem and to earn their Power Badgeβ¦ Hereβs another similar guide that Iβve also come across.
Meanwhile, more helpful advice was trickling in.
Just like that, my human credentials were again in question β this time, from what I assumed to be a human β but what, according to @ciefa.eth, could have been a bot.
The logical Vulcan was gone. Some very human emotions were beginning to roil, and I had to suppress the urge to let my inner Samuel L. Jackson loose on the keyboard. Instead, I drew a few calming breathes, and replied:
βThat said,β I continued, βplease don't make assumptions on how I naturally write. Go buy one of my books off OpenSea or Amazon, a poem off Objkt, read one of my Washington Post articles, my Paragraph or t2 posts.. Anything I've written on Medium.β
My interlocutor made an honest effort to mollify me, but there was just one problem.
At the end of our conversation, @y0b and I both acknowledged our belief in our shared humanity, and they provided a useful tip β add links to my off-Warpcast writing to my bio. Will the Ash-bot take that into consideration? Probably not β but it may inspire more confidence (or start some conversations) with the humans that I interact with.
For now, I stick by my guns β the current system of PB-by-algo, bots tarring both humans and fellow bots with the same brush, and inconsistent deployments of the Warpcast app across desktop and mobile platforms is holding the Farcaster ecosystem in general and Warpcast in particular back from achieving the goal of gaining and retaining engaged human users who make it their go-to app for prosuming quality content.
As for me? Iβm still here, still human, still badge-less, and still bullish. Lets build.
p.s. Does my last line give the lie to my title? Technically, noβ¦ the week is not yet over. There is still time for the algo β or a human β to grant me the power of (if not Greyskull) than at least the purple badge.
Edward Carpenter
This cast is purposefully casted only to my home feed. More and more people have a level 3 spam label (the worst one) and may not realize it but Iβm seeing it clearly now that Iβm not following anyone. If you reply to this cast and your reply is in the βShow More Repliesβ bucket, you have a Level 3 Spam Label. The easiest way to see this is to copy the cast using the button on the right into an incognito window and check where your reply is. If you have one, there is no way out except good behavior and hoping the spam algorithm reclassifies you over time. Change your behavior immediately. Only respond to casts in channels. The algorithm thinks you are spammy and you must do everything you can to make it change the way it sees you. Resources to helpful casts in the comments below.
Read this entire thread. Itβs VERY important. Amazing insight into the Spam Algorithm directly from the Warpcast team. https://warpcast.com/v/0x403d7af7
such a banger thread π€
Itβs full of such great intel!
ugh - reading up now and will be back! lol
Thanks for sharing! @pichi β quite a read
Fascinating right?
Older but still relevant info on what the algorithm considers βspammyβ. Includes a tool to help check if you have the Level 3 Spam Label. https://warpcast.com/pichi/0xbf867ff5
Here's hoping I made the cut... 40π 75 $Aba (sorry for the poor tip salad...many issues the past couple weeks)
OK, cool, confirmed I made the cut
I see you and got a notification about your reply.
π₯³ Survived another week!
I'm trying rn
Thanks for sharing and spreading the word Pichi!
You are welcome! I see you and got a notification about your reply.
Just checked and I am clear thankfully π
I see you and got a notification about your reply.
testing the label. pichi, thanks for your continued work on figuring these things out
See your reply and got a notification about your reply!
Just waiting for the day I get my Pichi follow back π₯²
See your reply and got a notification about your reply! No idea how long the experiment will last and Iβll be out of pocket a lot over the next few days in transit mode. 18 hours of flying to make it to Sapporo. No idea what the internet situation will be.
Sheeeesh thatβs a lot of air time, 14 was brutal for me π₯² Not actually worried about the follow Pichi, appreciate you always going above and beyond to sleuth things out π€ 500 $DEGEN 1000 $HODL πβ
Quite an experiment!!
Itβs been crazy!
You are probably running the most number of experiments on the platforms. Let's continue our collab discussions once your reach your destination. Have a safe journey :)
been on wc 2 months thanks to @undefined. itβs been challenging getting accustomed to the culture here, but iβve been enjoying it nevertheless. i love the community, support, and build culture. as iβve been tinkering with frames, actions, products built on farcaster, it has motivated me even more to think of ways to make something people want (h/t yc/@jesse.base.eth) on/off chain. but today i found out iβm already labeled as spam.. wtf :( itβs pretty demoralizing as i invest time to learn, grow, and build within this space. we need more βinteresting contentβ on wc? the based, builder mentality iβve seen from devs/creators alike is the only reason iβm here. (eg sharing progress on projects like yt automation scripts (@fun), animation shorts (@sloppy), mini apps (@matthewfox), etc.) but i canβt interact with any of them. or vv. @dwr.eth @v how does keeping this false positive issue help with the culture/interesting content you want in wc? what is that vision? Marked as a Spammer by @mvr
@dwr.eth @v tldr 1. pls unmark me spam 2. wc needs a better model for spam filtering
radio silence.
yep this isn't fair
Come on Lens π
will check it out next heh
Free thumb
How do they expect us to onboard more people when it's so easy to get flagged as spam? so unfair
Iβm not even flagged as spam, but losing my power badge and having it hidden has left me without a voice π
i'm sorry about that, denjin. good thing powerbadges are going away soon, we just don't know when but maybe that will even out the playing field a little bit? i still see you, keep going
I feel your pain - I wrote about this kind of thing back when "bot" was the "negative label of choice" - since then, it's been a long and strange road... Very sorry that you've found yourself unfairly labeled like this, and will do what I can to get this fixed for you - hopefully, we can work to create a system where this kind of thing doesn't happen to anyone. Til then, here's 100 $DEGEN and 1000 $farther and I'll make you my "test case" for airdropping Fan Tokens... stay tuned, and stay positive! P.S. - this was what I wrote when I was labeled a bot! https://paragraph.xyz/@degenaissancedigest/from-bad-bot-to-real-boy-to-power-badge?referrer=0xd5f45430f18f31FcB4b5129b618e24A9bafaC1e3
ty again. you describe the catch 22 well. hoping we as a platform get over this soon :)
bro need to get unspammered asap we cant lose thumb
appreciate u bro β€οΈ
ππ½
thumb out or we check out! π€
Hi thumb, u noob? /based-noobs
very nub
Love the energy in @ehcarpenter's retelling of his experience on Warpcast - how he was labeled by @botornot as casting like a bot, with "bland" casts and how his casts were hidden b/c he couldn't get a power badge. Most of us would probably close the app and never return at such an insult but not Edward. Seems like he didn't take it personally and I liked the humor interjected into his story. "As for me? Iβm still here, still human, still badge-less, and still bullish. Lets build." https://paragraph.xyz/@degenaissancedigest/from-bad-bot-to-real-boy-to-power-badge?referrer=0xd5f45430f18f31fcb4b5129b618e24a9bafac1e3
@botornot is not built to insult anyone! Casting behavior is dynamic and there are /manysuchcases of people going from casting only emojis constantly to creating more thoughtful content! Love to see it. Feedback on making bot or not less harsh is welcome.
This was wonderful! Thanks Adrienne. Great morning coffee reading. Followed, hopefully we can give him some extra juice to get a badge (even though they don't exist now π) next cycle.
Thanks, Adrienne! The funny thing is that I was literally JUST stripped of my badge... Maybe because I do strange things like question /founders who claim publicly that they don't participate in the social-token ecosystems here in WC... Started from the bottom now we back! π https://warpcast.com/katwolfie.eth/0xbf5bd32e
@ehcarpenter offers interesting content and is very supportive of others. I'm glad his experience and writing is being highlighted. With so few power badges offered, fewer than 2000, many quality casters will be without the PB. I make a point to check the recent tabs to connect with those who don't have the PB.
I've been making a point to reply to hidden replies. A lot of users are marked as spam that should't be... and umm... we all lost our badges last night, friend. There's a cast action, and it appears that yours is gone too. π
You lost yours! I'm so sorry to hear that. I knew I'd lost mine. I keep telling myself it doesn't matter, but ego.. π
This was a good read, thanks for sharing. I was in a similar boat - I think @botornot didn't label me as a bot, but as a human who casts like a bot, or something to that effect. No idea why. This article inspired me to check again though, and now I'm a "prolific caster", so hopefully things are looking up
some of your are worried you'll be misclassified as bots. which tells me you don't really know what moxie farmer bots look like. moxie farmer bots saturate cast replies with mechanical content, such as below. the markers: >casts too regularly (every five minutes, every hour, for 24+ hours) >casts are too regular (length, verbosity, emoji usage all drift together) >casts too often (wake casts 1000 times/ week; this user casts 1000/day) >is very poorly integrated (not followed by credible users)
there is also a CURIOUS lack of typos and other "human mess"
I always knew someday a typo wouldβve made me a better humanπ₯² Feels glorious
typo, thinko, fucko. humans are great.
funny part is if one wanted one could made it so much better. theyβre lazy bad botters πΉ
totally fricken lazy. im pretty peculiar about typos...just bc, but that is just insane.
people who use grammarly:
It is interesting what people consider spam Spam = Quantity / Quality Even if you don't post much but quality wise it is shit, it is still spam. Of course, this solidifies as you increate the number of these. I think we need non-quantifiable (probabilistic / blurry) ownership to jump into the next evolution of social media.
it feels like we having a tug of war with bots vs somewhat low engagement users / new users and i feel like its as if we score some points against them but we can never get rid of them and every step we take it does hurt the community, sometimes only a little sometimes certain decisions were mistakes and get corrected eventually but i feel like there must be a way to go about it I just dont have the answers and i dont think anyone really does but its a super complex problem that the internet itself hasnt solved
two cents: > we will never remove them > bots are the majority on online agents already > humans will stay outnumbered > not every step injures human communities, that varies a LOT > mistakes happen, yup > the way to go about it is the way we're going about it: gradually, in the arena, with good judgement and clear, measurable goals.
I get ZERO engagement lol. I no like being labeled π€
whoooooooah thaht eeeees so doap!
Iβm the Queen of typos so I guess that helps me stay away from bot like casts π
until the bots learn to be less perfect
be the mess you want to see in the world
πΆ so I kainda gortta leve them in
Very true
Good point. I will update my bots to add those back in. π
There's human mess, but gboard mess takes it to a whole nother level π€£
I just passed the bot test lmfao. I have done 5 casts in 5 mins tho haha but then Iβll go a whole day without casting, mostly cause Iβm sleeping lol
Yo this guy has been doing this since even before moxie. Consistently on top of the success reply leaderboard until we removed him from the list. Not sure what he gets outa of it before. Maybe just training for when moxie went live?
For a while now, I check the "more replies". And I've come to the conclusion that it's hidden for a reason. E.g. I cast a pic about food. The other replies are "wow, good luck" or "what else is going on with your project". Maybe one in a hundred replies is maybe not a bot. But that's is a statistical anomaly. The terminator thing is not gonna happen anytime soon, is what I'm saying.
What I'm worried about is making replies or posts that dont get any legitimate engagement and then eventually been flagged as a spammer. If what Dan was saying in his post the other day was more related to the kind of posts you showed in the video then that puts me at ease more... maybe Dan the man could have included such a piece of media to settle our worries...π₯΄
admins are caught in a sticky situation. they can't SHOW what bots look like because the machines can adapt very quickly (LLM parameters can be trivially adjusted). and unfortunately ONLY humans worry about being misidentified lol
If this is what FCers should be worried about, a lot of people can take a deep breath. But there is still moxie jail which also good people seem overworried about but nobody seems to know what sends you to moxie jail for life.
i'm gesturing generally toward bot-like markers. i don't know specifically what airstack is doing BTS to manage it. my general remark is "if you're worried, take a look at your casting habits. if you're doing something like this... somehow... relax a bit lol" i suppose jason will eventually offer guidance for "false positives" or a redemption arc for "recovering farmers"
Agreed. Yours if very helpful for bot mania that a lot of good casting people are worried about and don't need to be. Thanks π and I see dan shared this and said well intentioned but ignored you can do occasionally which will still strike fear into everyone. π
Brutal screen recording this for 2:15.. commitment to the game for all parties
Also, if you are doing this, but you are not a bot, most users don't care, your replies contribute nothing valuable in practice. So, the problem is not if it's a bot or not, it's that this pattern, usually generated by bots, does not contribute to our farcaster experience.
yep. "engage substantively" if you want to do well here (make frens, make money, make anything rly... bring substance.)
would you say its best to just mute accounts that end up on that list that also feel bot-ish to you? not the people that have gotten caught up, but you know, the repeat offenders lol
mr. wake...do you have any opinions/conjectures on the spam filter implications of @microsub tipping (and other similar mechanisms)? lots of folks (myself included) are understandably concerned... (cc: @dwr.eth @v @horsefacts.eth)
is the worry something like: "microsub casts repetitiously on my behalf at programmed times. is there a risk this content will make my profile appear less human to spam arbiters?"
more like: the algorithm isn't *necessarily* filtering for human-ness vs. bot-ness and is relatively opaque, so it's unclear what behaviors are being penalized. many folks use other tools to automate casts every day, and many actually explicit bots don't get filtered as spam. i'm trying to gain insights on the topic wherever i can. i believe tipping is good for Farcaster and will champion the cause as such.
Reminds me of Degen farmers back in the day π Nostalgia mode OFF
okay great, i was worried. iβll be cool now
I'm still waiting for this explanation... really looking forward to hearing how a true decentralized protocol can imprison people. Without a trial. And at this point, with no transparency. Sounds more like your average CIA operation in South America than a day in the life on WarpCast...
We have automations in place to stop accounts that are clearly bots from participating in rewards. Thatβs all.
If you are only preventing "bots" then why would you write a post (clearly intended for a human audience) talking about "Moxie jail" - and why would you say that "people" might be able to buy their way out of that jail, which isn't something a bot could do? Or is the state of bots such that they can now read and parse warnings and independently purchase NFTs/FTs? (This is a sincere question - perhaps the state of the art is progressing much more quickly than I thought) And still waiting for @ipeciura.eth 's explanation, BTW... his feed seems to consist of nothing but "Fan Token auction wins" posts... π€
there is an automation running that puts someone in moxie jail when the automation picks up that they are acting like a bot sometimes (altho rarely) real people get caught in the automations and they appeal to us with eloquent mia culpas such as attached; we review them i'm not sure what else you need?