Catawba Digital Economic Zone (CatawbaDEZ) has come out of the Catawba Nation to revolutionize the way people incorporate their financial technology and web3 ventures. Jackson and CEO Joseph McKinney sat down to discuss what the Catawba Nation is, what a DEZ is, the benefits of working with CatawbaDEZ, and how this DEZ came to be. As CatawbaDEZ has just opened up registration, this episode serves as an overview of the new “Governance as a Service” provider!

While CatawbaDEZ is building its virtual network, we’re building our physical one. See how you can help add Cabin neighborhoods, and you’ll also get our email newsletter packed with Cabin news and ways to get involved with the community.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/19-catawba-digital-economic-zone-disrupting-delaware/id1613976598?i=1000578775550

https://open.spotify.com/episode/6B4Hcy3ER3oCHY23FhV1Dh?si=8c954c1fab644fa6

Topics Covered:

• Introduction to the Catawba — (2:00)

• Why a Digital Economic Zone — (4:55)

• How Delaware Built its Reputation — (7:15)

• Catawba’s Nimble Regulatory Body — (9:25)

• Catawba’s Digital Asset Law — (9:55)

• Advantages of using Catawba for DAOs– (13:33)

• The Relationship Between CatawbaDEZ and the People — (18:09)

• Catawba’s Stablecoin Regulation — (24:22)

• Growing the Catawba Team – (25:50)

• The Vision for CatawbaDEZ — (27:15)

Want to learn more about what new technologies are waiting to be released? Follow us on Twitter or join our Discord to find out what's in store for us and how we make use of Web3 in both digital and physical space. See you at the next Campfire 🏕️🔥.

Episode Links:

CatawbaDEZ on Twitter

Joseph on LinkedIn

CatawbaDEZ’s Website

Episode Credit:

Hosted by @JacksonSteger

Sound Engineering by @Prodcolin

Videos and Clips by @McdonnellCallum 

Produced by @PhilippeIze

Distribution by @Alisonclaire and @PhilippeIze

[00:00:00] Jackson Steger: Hi everyone, this is Jackson Steger, and surprise, surprise, you're listening to Season 2 of Campfire. Let's get it. 

[00:00:09] This season of Campfire seeks to understand how to build new cities. Each week we are joined by experts and/or practitioners from different startup cities who will the share the stories and lessons that they have learned from experimenting with radical new models of living. 

[00:00:24] Cabin is building its own network city, which you can learn more about by visiting www.creatorcabins.com or by following us @CreatorCabins. Two weeks after having Próspera on the show, we're visiting another project that one might be able to categorize as a platform city, to use Zach Caceres’ language from earlier in the season. 

[00:00:44] The Catawba Digital Economic Zone is a special jurisdiction owned by the Catawba Indian Nation. Their goal is to disrupt Delaware when it comes to governance as a service. I'm joined in this episode by the CEO of the Digital Zone, Joseph McKinney, who helps to differentiate a digital economic zone from other economic zones, explains the special legal privileges extended to the Catawba, and shares the 50-year vision for regulatory frameworks in the digital space. 

[00:01:12] We kept this episode on the shorter side. DM me on Twitter if you're a fan of this newer length, or if you're not a fan, or if you just want to say hi. And as always, thanks to the team producing the show for keeping the quality of the content high. Enjoy the episode. Thanks.

[00:01:28] Joseph McKinney, welcome to Campfire. 

[00:01:31] Joseph McKinney: It's a pleasure. Thanks for inviting me on.

[00:01:33] Jackson Steger: So, a few weeks ago we had Próspera on the show, and we've talked about some of these different economic zones that are emerging, like Próspera or others in Honduras, but also ones that historically in the last half century have been huge drivers of growth, like Dubai and Hong Kong and some of these others. My first question for you is, what is Catawba? And specifically, how is a digital economic zone, like the one that you all are building, different from other kinds of economic zones? 

[00:02:06] Joseph McKinney: Cool. It’s interesting that you said what is a Catawba, but you didn't say what is a Catawba Digital Economic Zone. You asked, what is a Catawba. And that's a much broader question. The Catawba has existed for thousands of years in around this area, extending as far as Virginia, all the way down to Georgia. Obviously, like most Native American tribes, especially in the East Coast, that's significantly lower. And as of now they have about 3,300 spread across the United States, mostly within the area between Northern Charlotte or North Carolina down to mid or South Carolina. And like a lot of Native American tribes, they actually experienced termination in the 1940s. But like many Native Americans that suffered under the termination policy, they fought back. They fought crazy, and they sued the federal government, and they won in the 1990s. But because of that process, they had restrictions, specifically on gaming, that curtailed them.

[00:02:57] So they had to get creative about ways that they leveraged sovereignty for the economic development. And the bread and butter for Native American tribes across the United States has been gaming. And that's actually been an advantage to them, because Native American tribes, because they have lacked the structure and the capital, and therefore expertise, to run a full-scale business environment as a government, they've been focusing on these one-off examples of jurisdictional arbitrage, whether that's gaming or cannabis or tobacco, or what have you. But because the Catawba are nimble and had to be creative, they've been focusing on new ways to leverage it more like a traditional government, the fullest extent of their sovereignty, in providing governance services for companies that are domiciled within their zone.

[00:03:41] So, they started working on the special economic zone project about six years ago. About three years into that, they brought me in because of my work at the Startup Societies Foundation, now called Startup Societies Network, which is a nonprofit that entrepreneurs and stakeholders build special economic zones around the world, has a how-to guide for how to build special economic zones. In fact, some of your listeners might want to use it. It sounds like you're in that process, as we speak. And an academic journal in that space. 

[00:04:16] So, they brought me on, and I brought a little bit of expertise when it comes to digital asset, and we worked with the nation to develop a specific legislative package and engaged directly with Catawba citizens, and through this grassroots movement that they led, they secured a special meeting on February 19th of this year, and they passed that legislation into law.

[00:04:28] Jackson Steger: I really appreciate the background on the Catawba people. And I have more questions about the nature of the relationship between Catawba and then the enterprise that you're directly working with, which I'll circle back to. But first, I want to understand the larger mission of the digital economic zone. So, you mentioned your work with Startup Societies Network, your digital expertise, and you mentioned that nimbleness of the Catawba, why are digital assets and the digital economic zone the next sort of horizon or frontier for thinking about how they can play up jurisdictional advantages? And what, yeah, just sort of repeating the question from before, how's a digital economic zone different from other kinds of economic zones? 

[00:05:18] Joseph McKinney: Sure. So, the bread and butter of special economic zones around the world has always been real estate, essentially under the land lease model. You develop a regulatory, commercial, or tax incentives or all of the above, make it super attractive for businesses or residents to locate there, and then they lease space, and the increased lease revenue then pays the special economic zone. That's always been the model. 

[00:05:39] But like everything nowadays, especially in the wick of COVID, digitization is happening, and you do not necessarily have to be physically located in an area to have those benefits. And we've already seen this even before COVID. Like Estonia, as an example, has been benefiting from the laws and accessing the market through remotely domiciling company. But even something that's pretty mundane that happens literally every single day, which is Delaware, they register hundreds of thousands of companies, generate $1.6 billion in revenue annually, and they're leaving a lot of money on the table by doing so.

[00:06:12] So, this happens all the time. You don't necessarily have to be located in the place to experience jurisdictional arbitrage. And the reason why it's beneficial for tribes is that they have the same status as U.S. states. So, they're able to move nimbly. And because they are a smaller tribe, they are able to move their institutions faster to meet with technological changes. And because of it's always important to be considerate of the land question when working with Native American tribes, and they are for all the right reasons concerned about their land use, they want to leverage their jurisdictional arbitrage without having to sacrifice some of the land use considerations. So, it fit perfectly with all the requirements that they have.

[00:06:53] Jackson Steger: That's really interesting. So, I have my own small LLC that I just do like freelancing work through. It's incorporated through Delaware, and I mostly did that because it's just common knowledge and business practice that for some reason you should incorporate in Delaware because it's somehow simple or advantageous to you. And also, that's what Stripe recommends. 

[00:07:14] So, I'm curious, how did Delaware build its advantage in this space? And then, how do you, with the economic zone, think about disrupting Delaware effectively? 

[00:07:26] Joseph McKinney: To say it really bluntly, they're old. That's really what it comes down to. Well, they’re one of the first jurisdictions in the United States that allow you to charter a company without having or going to a legislature. So, that was key, being able to go through a simple procedure through the Secretary of State to register a company, that was a real advantage a couple hundred years ago. That didn't exist prior to that.

[00:07:47] And as a consequence of that, they've been able to develop case law because the U.S. legal system and other common law legal systems are all based on precedent. So, Delaware has stacked up this case law over hundreds of years. And they've also made sure that their corporate codes, meaning the statutes which limit what businesses can and can't do as LLCs or as C Corps or as Trust, what have you, they're all pretty nimble, streamed down, nimble touched. So, they've been able to maintain that. And also, beyond just the case law and all that momentum, brand recognition. They actually have brand ambassadors that go across the world, explaining the benefits of Delaware. And as a consequence of that, companies get about a 5% premium on the likelihood of getting funding versus other jurisdictions.

[00:08:32] But the thing about the Catawba is that we meet all those advantages and then excel in others. For instance, when it comes to case law, our corporate code and our commercial code is based off of template laws that are created by the Uniform Law Commission, the American Bar Association, and the American Legal Institute. And a lot of those laws are taken from an aggregate of all common law jurisdictions around the world, synthesized into what they call black letter rulings to create a simple corporate code. 

[00:08:59] So basically we have that hundreds of years of precedent baked directly into it. And if they want to have arbitral decisions or court decisions that are informed by that case law that Delaware has, our users have the ability to have a choice of venue in their contracts, where they can say, we want to go to an arbiter that uses Wyoming Case law or Panama Case Law, not Panama because that's civil, but/or Delaware Case Law, or even go to the Chancery Court, if they want. So, we have all that met, and we also have zero state corporate tax within the zone. 

[00:09:30] But the ways that we succeed them is for one, that nimble regulatory body, not just on the legislative side through the tribe, 3000 plus people, but also the structure of the zone itself that is run by the zone authority, which is a regulatory body similar to a secretary of state, plus a financial services regulator. And that's governed by a council of five, commission of five. And they meet every two weeks, and they move very quickly. In fact, we just became the first jurisdiction in the United States to adopt amendments to the UCC to incorporate digital assets. Normally that takes 12 to 24 months. We did it under a month. 

[00:10:05] Jackson Steger: Yeah, I saw that as news from yesterday. We're recording this on August 26th. And I wanted to ask about it because, first just for listeners, the acronym UCC you gave is the Uniform Commercial Code, the press release that came out from the AP News called this the world's most advanced legal framework for digital assets. 

[00:10:26] Two questions here. What makes it the world's most advanced legal framework for digital assets specifically? And then separately, how does one amend a uniform commercial code? Does an amendment in a specific jurisdiction no longer make it uniform? This is just me with no legal background, looking for help.

[00:10:43] Joseph McKinney: That's a really good question. It's actually kind of strange. Did you know that most of the most important laws in the United States are actually made by private nonprofits? They've been in so for hundreds of years. So, the Uniform Commercial Code is created by a nonprofit, called The Uniform Law Commission. They've existed since the 1890s, I believe. And what they do is that they propose these uniform codes that are adopted by all 50 states. I think one of the only variations is that Louisiana deviated slightly because they inherited a lot of French civil law. But across all the states, they have nine articles, which deal with things like secure transactions, securities, banking that are consistent. But there is updates always, like with any good organization. So, the Uniform Law Commission, they create these new template laws or amendments on occasion. 

[00:11:33] And in 2019, they commissioned to study and to work on amendments specifically to deal with digital assets. And, basically, the way I like to describe it is that the Uniform Law Commission is basically a bunch of illegal monks that essentially focus so heavily on the law, that to lay people, it seems so arcane, it's almost like debating how many angels are in the pin of a needle. But instead, it's how can you perfect a security transaction on the head of a needle.

[00:11:59] But it's actually really important. And the level of care that they go into it is incredible. And it's really important that whatever reforms through the digital asset framework are incorporated into it because otherwise it wouldn't be interoperable with the rest of the legal system. And that's why it's so competitive, because in order to have a real legal framework, you need to have a holistic one that works with the whole economy and plugs in to different pieces. 

[00:12:22] There's been some ad hoc type of reforms in different jurisdictions, like Gibraltar. It was big for a while, but they specifically made something about ICOs, but nothing about the rest of the digital asset system. And you see that here and there. Versus what places like Wyoming and Lichtenstein have done is that they incorporated digital assets under the entire legal and property framework. But even the way that Wyoming did it was a little bit problematic, and it's precisely because they could not touch the uniform commercial code. Basically, only the Uniform Law Commission can do that, as a consequence, the way that they went about it is like they took duct tape and glue and started working with property definitions rather than dealing directly with Uniform Commercial Code. 

[00:13:06] But because the ULC was able to draft that, they were able to make amendments directly to the UCC, making it simpler, cleaner, technologically neutral. And because of those legal minds, the most forward-thinking digital asset framework in the United States, and I would argue because it is more holistic and it is based on a hundred years of precedent, the most advanced in the world.

[00:13:27] Jackson Steger: I would love to add some examples to this, like precedent setting. So, Cabin, itself, is a DAO, but we also are an unincorporated nonprofit in Texas for the sake of working quickly when in our earlier days, there's a lot of legal questions we don't know the answers to, and we wanted to just be able to do some basic things, like own trucks and stuff like that. 

[00:13:53] So, I'm curious, how do ERC-20s get treated under like a CDEZ framework? Or how are digital assets, are they regarded as securities? What are advantages to this new framework that DAOs like Cabin or Krause House, or even maybe potentially network states, could benefit from? What's the pitch to DAOs to come and set up relationships with the CDEZ?

[00:14:23] Joseph McKinney: So, I guess the question is about the digital assets, but it's really interesting that it's an unincorporated non-profit association? 

[00:14:29] Jackson Steger: Correct. 

[00:14:30] Joseph McKinney: Have you seen our draft regulation for DAOs? 

[00:14:33] Jackson Steger: No, actually. Well great, next question, tell us about draft regulations for DAOs. 

[00:14:37] Joseph McKinney: So, we actually provide the menu format. So, Wyoming, they have the LLC model where you can incorporate as an LLC. But we had an additional framework, where you can register as an unincorporated non-profit association, I mean essentially just as it's the most flexible entity type out there, and a lot of people that are in the DAO space have been saying that it's beneficial for quite some time. Instead of having to refer to the statute constantly, it is governed through the governing principles. So, it's able to move a lot more nimbly and flexibly. Also it doesn't have to have a registered agent, yet at the same time, it could have a bank account. And I don't know about Texas, but as far as I can tell, most UNAs in the United States, they don't have limited liability, they're treated almost like partnerships. But within our zone, you actually have limited liability while maintaining this level of flexibility. So, it's interesting that you said that. 

[00:15:23] Jackson Steger: I appreciate that. And I'm also here wishing that Jon Hillis, who is one of the founders of the DAO and helped to spearhead this front, was here, so that I could ask him questions and have you both talk at the same time, but for another day, I suppose. 

[00:15:38] What about my earlier question regarding like an ERC-20 or just NFTs? Like I think that there's a lot of crypto entrepreneurs or even just retail investors who aren't sure how to think about crypto assets because they're so new and because the SEZ and other U.S. bodies do move slowly in coming to decisions here. Say, Cabin, for example, we try not to talk about token price because really we care about building our network city and the token price moves and doesn't affect our real goals right now. Like we think it's distracting to focus on price. But like still, if I'm like a member of CabinDAO and I have some Cabin and it grows in price over the course of the year and I sell a little bit, is it a security? Like how should crypto entrepreneurs think about some of these tokens and how they're regulated as digital assets? 

[00:16:34] Joseph McKinney: So, first, one thing to mention, we do have the same status as the U.S. states. So, ultimately, federal securities law is applicable to where there is interstate commerce with securities. So, that's clear. But we do have the same authority at the state level, and there are realms of autonomy for states to develop blue sky regulations, and commercial codes in regards to securities, and blue sky regulations especially for when transactions happen within a jurisdiction. 

[00:17:02] So, specifically how the UCC deals with it. So, what they call this is they have this as general category, and this is why it's technologically neutral, because we have no idea what new technologies are going to pop up within the next five years or so. They call them controllable electronic records, and that ties to like old amendments to the UCC, where basically they say that electronic signatures and other forms of electronic communications count under commercial code. So, a controllable electronic record is where it's not just a document, like a signature or a contract, it actually has the value itself. So, that could be a thing like an NFT, that can be something like an ERC-20, that can be something like Bitcoin. And the way that's defined is how it's used, and the way that they define it is how it's traditionally defined because the UCC does have its own definition of security underneath it. 

[00:17:47] As of right now, the zone does not have any additional securities framework. So, the only relevant securities framework is federal law. We will be developing our own securities framework, especially for interactions that happen solely within the zone, but ultimately we're at the same status of every single state and make sure you're compliant with that. But the UCC does provide clarity in a bunch of different things. 

[00:18:08] Jackson Steger: I want to transition for a second back to the relationship that the digital economic zone has with the Catawba tribe. On your website, you write that the CDEZ is a sovereign regulatory zone established and backed by the Catawba Indian Nation. You have specifically used the pronoun “They” to refer to Catawba, so not “We”. So, I'm assuming that you're not personally a member of the Catawba Indian Nation. But I'm curious, assuming that's true, like how did the relationship begin? You mentioned that they reached out to you, given your expertise. But what is your lesson? How has your appreciation for the Catawba people grown and as you've worked with them, and yeah, what is the formal working relationship between the Catawba Indian Nation and the CDEZ? 

[00:18:57] Joseph McKinney: Yeah, I don't have the honor nor the pleasure of being a Catawba citizen, but I do have the pleasure of being their – they are my boss, and I'm happy for that. And the reason that developed is because, as I stated earlier, I've been working on Startup Societies, and one of the people that has been working on the team for three years contacting me, he contacted one of our advisors, Tom W. Bell, based on his book, Your Next Government. Your listeners should definitely catch that book, it's good. 

[00:19:24] Jackson Steger: We may have Professor Bell on the show soon if we're lucky. 

[00:19:28] Joseph McKinney: Awesome. Yeah. Yeah, let me know if you need any help there. And yeah, he talked specifically about SEZ, so they contacted him. And then Tom's a little busy at the moment, but you take a look at this, Joe, and tell me what you think. And like most people in the United States, I thought this is simply Native Americans are paper tigers, they're not truly sovereign. I found out I was completely and totally wrong, and it's the exact the opposite, that they have the authority, they just haven't had the structure in place to make it happen. I worked with them, and then we developed an MOU with their business arm, Catawba Corporations. And based off of that, we moved down to South Carolina, where the real work began, which it wasn't just the developing of the legal framework with the attorneys.

[00:20:05] So, we definitely developed a working relationship there. But the real work was working with Catawba leaders, heads of families, elders, sitting down and breaking bread, and developing personal relationships with them. And I've been incredibly honored by the trust and them inviting me into their homes and into their lives, and frankly, some very personal situations with them.

[00:20:28] And because of the relationships that we've built, I think I can say this definitively. I think we created the first grassroots movement for special economic zones, where Catawba citizens were going out there and pushing with their elected leaders to make sure that this happens. And they even secured a special session of their legislature specifically to talk about and to vote on this zone. So, that's leading up to that, going to Golden Corral multiple times a week with printed materials, eating fried chicken at 8:00 AM and fried chicken at 3:00 PM later on, and like going door to door, printing signs, just all sort of things associated with community engagement. And it got voted in a landslide on February 19th.

[00:21:12] Jackson Steger: Yeah. As part of that grassroots movement, which I love that approach, what were the biggest concerns that folks had as you went through that process? 

[00:21:20] Joseph McKinney: Like with anything with crypto, is this like some dark web stuff. I'm not really understanding it. But actually I got less of those concerns than from just off the street Americans. I would say that they understand the legal framework approach infinitely more than most people in the United States, and I think part of that is because of their close proximity to their government, that they are legislators in their everyday lives. So, they understood it very quickly. It didn't take much. It was basically just creating pamphlets of material which explained the project and just if they have any questions regarding that to answer. I mean their main concern wasn't even a concern, but it's a question that needs to be asked, is what is the structure? And I think that was one of your questions too. 

[00:22:08] So, what the law did is that it created that commercial code that I talked about, but importantly, it created two different organizations. Arguably, the most important organization in a sense is the zone authority, which in a legal sense it's actually just a part of the Catawba Government. And it is run by an independent commission with its own assets and liabilities, but it is run by a five-person commission of Catawba citizens chosen by elected leadership and business leaders, et cetera. And that body is responsible not just for creating regulations for the registering companies but also making sure that the zone is completely under Catawba control. 

[00:22:44] And then the other entity within the zone is the for-profit management company, and that entity is majority owned by Catawba citizens, it is a corporation, and the rest owned by private partners. And not just that’s stock ownership, that is a 100% non-dilutable, but also a board distribution that cannot be changed, that is Catawba citizens versus for private partners. So, no matter how you call it, the Catawba are always in control of this project. It is their project. They govern it, they push the rules, they legislate, they control the business board, it's theirs. We just provide expertise when necessary. 

[00:23:21] Jackson Steger: Awesome. I really appreciate that. That was candidly like my biggest concern coming into this episode, and I appreciate the transparency you just provided but also the thoughtfulness of how the project is constructed. 

[00:23:33] Joseph McKinney: Yeah. And the other way is it's like the money is distributed pro rata based on their ownership percentage. And also, in addition to the monetary advantage, we also make sure that we're planning to make apprenticeship program where Catawba citizens will be hired by companies that are registered within the zone. In fact, e-residents will get benefits for hiring Catawba citizens and actually would be able to defer on fees with their LLC and what have you. So, this isn't just about money, though it certainly is. It's also about creating jobs for the long term.

[00:24:02] Jackson Steger: Awesome. Great. Yeah. And on the note of just, again, providing these consistent frameworks, one of the topics that all the way up to Congress has been discussed without much certainty is rules concerning stablecoins. And another thing that you may announce between now and this episode being released is a proposal for rulemaking of stablecoins. What are the general principles there in how you think about governing stablecoins? 

[00:24:28] Joseph McKinney: So, first and foremost, our stablecoin regulation will be related to our banking code, which we have a draft regulation for, and that's based off of banking codes set in South Dakota, North Dakota, and Wyoming. We think that what Wyoming did was really great, but what they didn't allow for is traditional banking enterprise in addition to digital assets. Basically, their speedy bank’s special depository institutions can hold digital assets, but they can't really do traditional banking business, like running based on deposits. 

[00:25:00] This framework allows for that while making sure that you're compliant and stable and what have you. And I'm not going to really talk about it right now, but it will provide for a way to make it easier to access traditional U.S. payment rails, like Fedwire, et cetera. And what we'll do within that framework is define what type of entity types can do stablecoin regulations, what types of assets they will do, and define how algorithmic stablecoins relate to asset backed or deposit backed or what have you. 

[00:25:32] And the main goal of this advanced rulemaking notice is to get questions and feedback from the community about what they want to integrate that into our draft stablecoin regulation, and then we'll present that to the public before it is approved. 

[00:25:46] Jackson Steger: Great. I have two last questions to take us out. One thing I'm curious about, especially just marinating on how you are going to think about Web3 companies first, just the corporate structure of CDEZ, and how you're thinking about growing the team. So, you're the CEO, what are the core functions of a digital economic zone, especially, one, with the aspirations to disrupt the billion-dollar governance as a service industry that Delaware is? How are you thinking about growing your team? 

[00:26:17] Joseph McKinney: Interesting. The way that we want to do this, we want to provide it as nimbly as possible, and we want to make sure that the bulk of the governing, or all the governing is done on the Catawba side. That the rulemaking is done on their side, and they have their own internal team for that. That they are the one registering the companies.  What we're providing is focusing on the for-profit services that need to get done there – the software element of it, what's happening to the real estate into the infrastructure, marketing to it. So, we want to make sure that we are pretty nimble, focusing on just the things that the government needs in order to support itself.

[00:26:49] Jackson Steger: Gotcha. And so then to take us out, got a sense of what the one- to three-year vision might be in focusing on these Web3 industries and writing a lot of these frameworks and growing just the foundation of what the digital economic zone will be. What is both the 5-year vision and also maybe like the 50-year vision? If you're wildly successful, how will the CDEZ be a player on the world stage?

[00:27:17] Joseph McKinney: So, in five years, I think that we should at least be on close playing field with Delaware, if not, surpassing it. So, that's our goal there. In 50 years, I want the zone to be a catalyst to change American Federalism. I want it to be... 

[00:27:36] Jackson Steger: Just as to what you said, what do you mean by that? 

[00:27:39] Joseph McKinney: Right now, federalism in the United States has focused on states versus federal, and the dynamic of that has changed over the years. But the constitution doesn't talk just about states and the federal government. Built within the constitution are the ideas of pre-constitutional Native American tribes. And we're now in a time where we're seeing increasing distrust of centralization, not just from crypto circles, but from people that are just looking at politics and seeing our reaction and our capability on the federal level. So, there's evolving down to the more local level. And I think that the leaders in that are going to be the tribes. And I think that the Catawba are in a position where they can fundamentally change our orientation about federalism and governance in the United States. And frankly, I think that the Catawba can be something that saves and reinvigorates the United States. I think it could become one of the biggest hubs in the United States, maybe even a physical hub one day with something that we can explore at a certain point. But, yeah, I think it could be absolutely transformative. 

[00:28:54] Jackson Steger: Awesome. Well, Joseph, thanks so much for joining the show. Where should listeners go if they want to learn more about the Catawba Digital Economic Zone?

[00:29:03] Joseph McKinney: Sure. So, go to www.catawbadigital.zone. 

[00:29:07] Jackson Steger: Great! Well have a great rest of your day. We will let you know when this episode is out, and really appreciate your time. 

[00:29:14] Joseph McKinney: All right. Thank you so much.

END OF TRANSCRIPT