In an engaging and insightful discussion, ddy interviews veteran Dark Forest players Frank and classicj . The conversation covers their journeys into the world of cryptocurrency and Dark Forest, memorable experiences, gameplay strategies, the impact of plugins and zkSNARKs, and their thoughts on playing solo versus with friends. They also share valuable tips for new players and their visions for the future of the game.

ddy: Please introduce yourselves briefly.

Frank: Hello everyone, I am Frank, a 5G system engineer in real life. I have been experiencing financial losses since the EOS era.

classicj: Hello, I am classicj! I have been playing games since I was a young boy and have since developed a strong interest in cryptocurrency and freely extensible games. Though in real life, I drive boats.

ddy: How did you get access to the crypto industry and Dark Forest?

classicj: I first encountered the cryptocurrency space around 2018 or 2019 when I purchased a couple hundred dollars of Bitcoin, which I promptly forgot about. I continued happily with my life over the next two years, but then in 2020, I became much more interested and involved, particularly in Ethereum, which I found more exciting than Bitcoin.

As for Dark Forest, I started from being a Reddit user. One day, while browsing the daily thread on r/EthFinance, I came across a comment near the bottom with an invitation to try out a game called Dark Forest. I decided to log on and spent a portion of the afternoon exploring the game for about an hour or two. I found it extremely challenging and vowed never to play it again. This was during v0.6 Round 3. However, a few months later, I received an email from the team with an invite code for the next round. Having forgotten my previous experience, I decided to give it another try and ended up falling in love with the game.

Frank: My entry into the crypto industry began with the EOS ICO. Regarding Dark Forest, I started playing during version 0.5. I first learned about the game through a Chinese WeChat group maintained by Keke and Erica, who provided me with an invite code to join.

ddy: Oh, EOS is indeed a relic of the past era, isn’t it?

ddy: What is your most memorable experience in the game? I know that you two have fought against each other before, so feel free to share some details!

Frank: There was a conflict between me and classicj during the community round organized by 277DAO. However, the most memorable event for me was my first major war in the game, which took place during Round 0.5. At that time, I was still learning how to effectively attack and defend my planets. I ended up in a prolonged conflict with my neighbor, who was quite skilled. Despite my attempts to negotiate and end the fight by reaching out to him on Twitter, he refused to cease hostilities, leading to a continued battle between us. Interestingly, I later discovered that this individual was a well-known figure and had blacklisted my Twitter account (classicj and ddy both laugh 😄). In a twist of fate, years later, I found myself in the same WeChat group as this person. When I mentioned Dark Forest, he responded, and I realized that he was the same individual I had battled during Round 0.5. Eventually, we ended up becoming friends.

classicj: During the rounds, I considered myself somewhat of a collector. I knew I didn’t have much of a chance to secure a top position, but I enjoyed collecting the various artifacts. I created a comprehensive spreadsheet cataloging all the different types and rarities of artifacts and would mark them off as I acquired them. I particularly remember an instance in version 0.6 Round 4, I think, when I spotted a legendary artifact moving across the screen close to me. I was determined to capture it, and after spending about an hour and a half chasing it across numerous small planets, I finally succeeded. It turned out to be ordengg, who was maneuvering the artifact across the tiny planets. Acquiring that legendary artifact felt like such a significant achievement and a very memorable moment for me.

ddy: Actually, after version 0.6.5, MJ contacted us to form a secret group called ZKForest, with one of our goals being to challenge ordengg. Interestingly, classicj later joined ordengg. (😄)

ddy: What are your strategies for playing the game? Do you prefer to engage in combat, negotiate for peace, or perhaps deceive your enemies?

Frank: I prefer a defensive strategy. Engaging in war can be unpredictable — you don’t always know who you’re fighting against or who their allies might be. War can be time-consuming and requires constant attention, as being offline often means being vulnerable. I also avoid extensive social interactions with other players, as knowing them can complicate matters. For example, if you know the owner of a planet or artifact, you may hesitate to attack or steal from them. Therefore, I prefer to maintain anonymity and avoid unnecessary conflicts.

ddy: A brief question: What is the longest duration of a war you have experienced?

Frank: I don’t recall the exact duration, but it was at least two days. On one occasion, I was expanding my planets and encroached upon some of ordengg’s territory. This led to a prolonged conflict, as he persistently chased and attacked me (classicj and ddy both laugh 😄). He had one level 9 double-range planets, which made the situation even more challenging. I remember being on the verge of going offline for a meal, but I had to stay active to avoid significant disadvantages. During this period, I had to stay up very late and fight continuously.

ddy: How much did you approximately sleep during that time?

Frank: During the war, I might have slept only about 3 hours a day.

ddy: And how about you, classicj?

classicj: I tend to prefer an offensive approach.

ddy: The first time I encountered you, you sent a Titan to my planet to disrupt its energy accumulation. (classicj laughs 😄)

classicj: Yeah, I did that to several players, lol. Due to the fog of war, you can’t see where other players are or who is around. The fog of war means you don’t know the locations of other players, and hopefully they don’t know yours. If they are “reasonable”, they typically play for a maximum of about 8 hours a day. This creates an opportunity where, with me being in a different time zone, I often played when others were asleep. I used this to my advantage, targeting planets when players were offline. I also focused on less obvious strategies, such as attacking smaller supporting planets to disrupt consistent energy generation rather than focusing solely on larger, more intimidating planets. This approach allowed me to win many battles by leveraging strategies that were less conventional.

ddy: What is the difference in experience between playing Dark Forest with friends and playing solo?

classicj: I played official rounds solo, but most of the community rounds I’ve participated in have been with friends. Playing with friends definitely offers a different experience. When you’re working with friends, there’s a lot more to manage. You might feel obligated to assist them if they’re in need or if you’ve taken their planets. This dynamic requires you to have a broader perspective on the overall game, as you must consider not just your own strategy but also coordinate with your teammates. In contrast, when playing solo, all the information you need is directly available on your screen, and there’s less to manage in terms of coordination and communication.

ddy: I recall a time when we participated in a Dark Forest community round organized by 277DAO as a team. Towards the end of the game, I was overwhelmed with managing many planets and couldn’t keep up with the messages on Discord. When I eventually checked the messages, I saw that classicj was quite frustrated (classicj laughs 😄) because we had differing views on the game situation and our next steps. Fortunately, we were able to resolve the misunderstanding through communication and ended up performing well in that community round.

Frank: I always play solo. In some community rounds, I often recognize who I’m competing against for the top positions. When we know each other well, we sometimes avoid direct conflict. Occasionally, I create two accounts to try to get both of them into the rankings.

ddy: What are your thoughts on creating multiple accounts? Do you think it provides a significant advantage? Do you prefer playing with multiple accounts or focusing on just one? How do you feel about sybils for onchain games overall?

Frank: Using multiple accounts can provide a strategic advantage because it allows for resource sharing, particularly with artifacts. I typically focus on keeping my main account at the top of the leaderboard and use a secondary account to also achieve a high ranking. This approach helps me accounts secure better positions in the game, contributing to overall success.

classicj: Personally, I’ve only created additional accounts for Dark Forest in v0.6 Round 5, primarily due to the introduction of the Mothership and its mechanics. Before that, I only played with one account and sent my other invites codes to irl friends, though unfortunately none stuck around. The mechanics of Junk limiting expansion also prompted me to create these secondary accounts to transfer more Junk to my main account. Although managing multiple accounts can be complex, it can provide some advantages, depending on the games configuration. I prefer for games to steer away from providing advantages for multiple accounts, and I expect most players agree. Games probably need to steer towards exponential power increases on single accounts to reduce the long-term effectiveness of multiple accounts, and attempt to minimize the unique bonuses granted to accounts, such as the single mothership that was given to an account in Dark Forest.

ddy: Does the plugin system improve or worsen the game?

classicj: In my opinion, plugins are fantastic. Having used mods in games like Civilization, Skyrim, and City Skylines, I find plugins enhance the gameplay experience. For example, plugins that provide maps or automate repetitive tasks are incredibly useful. However, I can see how automation bots can undermine the game’s challenge and enjoyment, as playing against a bot is less engaging than competing with real players.

Frank: Plugins are beneficial in various scenarios, but they can create an imbalance for newcomers who may not know how to use them effectively. Veteran players often have access to more plugins and may even develop their own, putting newcomers at a disadvantage. For a game to be fair, it should ensure an equal playing field for all players. Thus, I believe games should avoid giving experienced players an unfair edge through plugins.

classicj: While plugins do provide an advantage, I feel that they are almost a part of the learning curve in these games. Dark Forest had a range of plugins available to everyone, which was incredibly helpful. With recent advancements in AI tools, it’s now easier for those without significant coding experience to create their own simple plugins. To me, this encourages learning and can be a engaging aspect of the gameplay.

ddy: Moving on to zkSNARKs. As we know, Dark Forest is a multiplayer online real-time strategy game that utilizes zkSNARKs. For players who are not familiar with the technology, how does zero-knowledge proof affect the gaming experience?

classicj: For those who aren’t aware, the zkSNARKs technology is what allows Dark Forest to have “ZK fog of war”, which hides information about the game state. Players make moves in the universe, but you only see information relevant to the coordinates you have explored. While this is an intriguing proof of concept, it can make the game unfair. For instance, I once saw someone with high-end GPUs hashing the map thousands of times faster than I could due to my low-end PC. This created a significant gap between players with different hardware capabilities, leading to an imbalance based on economic access.

ddy: If we removed plugins and zkSNARKs, would it improve the game?

classicj: Removing zkSNARKs might disappoint those interested in the technology’s application, but it could make the game more enjoyable for players by providing a complete view of the map from the start. Removing the in-game plugins menu, on the other hand, would not completely solve the issue as game mechanics would still be reverse-engineered and custom clients could be created. Making plugins more accessible and easy to use is a good approach to lessen the advantage for more technically skilled players.

Frank: You can adjust the API before the game starts, then even experienced players will cost time to adapt to plugins. However, for very short rounds, it’s often better to focus on gameplay rather than technical modifications. Onchain games are generally more about gameplay than technical tweaking.

ddy: Do you have any tips to share with new players, and any thoughts on your contributions to the community?

classicj: My advice for new players is to spend time testing and exploring the game. Dark Forest is about space exploration after all, and experiencing the vastness of the game can be very exciting. Since v0.6 Round 5, I’ve been a moderator for the Dark Forest Discord, helping new players understand the game and guiding them as they progress, and with my limited technical knowledge, I’ve done what I can to connect new developers who are interested Dark Forest to continue the experiment in their own way.

Frank: For newcomers, it’s crucial to maximize your playtime, especially on the first day. Focus on capturing key locations and higher-level targets. My primary advice is to persist and not give up easily. Even if faced with challenges from top players like ordengg, staying active and defending yourself can make a difference.

classicj: Definitely, stock up on coffee ( ddy and Frank laugh 😁).

Frank: I hope we can attract more new players and make the game more accessible. Innovation and ideas to engage newcomers would be beneficial.

classicj: I’m excited to see what new mechanics will be implemented. I feel that the overall number of resources in the game is relatively low compared to other games; here, we mainly have energy, silver, and artifacts. I am looking forward to seeing some innovation in this aspect. I’m also excited to see how the game itself might experiment with different formats, such as shorter rounds, like 24 or 48 hours. We’ve also had events like 30-minute rounds or speedrun competitions before. As of now, I am not aware of any permanent Dark Forest universe, so I think creating a permanent Dark Forest universe could be an interesting idea. It could allow anyone to join and continue for many years, or indefinitely, and we could see how it plays out over a long period, observing how different players rise and fall, how their interest grows and wanes.

In an engaging and insightful discussion, ddy interviews veteran Dark Forest players Frank and classicj . The conversation covers their journeys into the world of cryptocurrency and Dark Forest, memorable experiences, gameplay strategies, the impact of plugins and zkSNARKs, and their thoughts on playing solo versus with friends. They also share valuable tips for new players and their visions for the future of the game.

ddy: Please introduce yourselves briefly.

Frank: Hello everyone, I am Frank, a 5G system engineer in real life. I have been experiencing financial losses since the EOS era.

classicj: Hello, I am classicj! I have been playing games since I was a young boy and have since developed a strong interest in cryptocurrency and freely extensible games. Though in real life, I drive boats.

ddy: How did you get access to the crypto industry and Dark Forest?

classicj: I first encountered the cryptocurrency space around 2018 or 2019 when I purchased a couple hundred dollars of Bitcoin, which I promptly forgot about. I continued happily with my life over the next two years, but then in 2020, I became much more interested and involved, particularly in Ethereum, which I found more exciting than Bitcoin.

As for Dark Forest, I started from being a Reddit user. One day, while browsing the daily thread on r/EthFinance, I came across a comment near the bottom with an invitation to try out a game called Dark Forest. I decided to log on and spent a portion of the afternoon exploring the game for about an hour or two. I found it extremely challenging and vowed never to play it again. This was during v0.6 Round 3. However, a few months later, I received an email from the team with an invite code for the next round. Having forgotten my previous experience, I decided to give it another try and ended up falling in love with the game.

Frank: My entry into the crypto industry began with the EOS ICO. Regarding Dark Forest, I started playing during version 0.5. I first learned about the game through a Chinese WeChat group maintained by Keke and Erica, who provided me with an invite code to join.

ddy: Oh, EOS is indeed a relic of the past era, isn’t it?

ddy: What is your most memorable experience in the game? I know that you two have fought against each other before, so feel free to share some details!

Frank: There was a conflict between me and classicj during the community round organized by 277DAO. However, the most memorable event for me was my first major war in the game, which took place during Round 0.5. At that time, I was still learning how to effectively attack and defend my planets. I ended up in a prolonged conflict with my neighbor, who was quite skilled. Despite my attempts to negotiate and end the fight by reaching out to him on Twitter, he refused to cease hostilities, leading to a continued battle between us. Interestingly, I later discovered that this individual was a well-known figure and had blacklisted my Twitter account (classicj and ddy both laugh 😄). In a twist of fate, years later, I found myself in the same WeChat group as this person. When I mentioned Dark Forest, he responded, and I realized that he was the same individual I had battled during Round 0.5. Eventually, we ended up becoming friends.

classicj: During the rounds, I considered myself somewhat of a collector. I knew I didn’t have much of a chance to secure a top position, but I enjoyed collecting the various artifacts. I created a comprehensive spreadsheet cataloging all the different types and rarities of artifacts and would mark them off as I acquired them. I particularly remember an instance in version 0.6 Round 4, I think, when I spotted a legendary artifact moving across the screen close to me. I was determined to capture it, and after spending about an hour and a half chasing it across numerous small planets, I finally succeeded. It turned out to be ordengg, who was maneuvering the artifact across the tiny planets. Acquiring that legendary artifact felt like such a significant achievement and a very memorable moment for me.

ddy: Actually, after version 0.6.5, MJ contacted us to form a secret group called ZKForest, with one of our goals being to challenge ordengg. Interestingly, classicj later joined ordengg. (😄)

ddy: What are your strategies for playing the game? Do you prefer to engage in combat, negotiate for peace, or perhaps deceive your enemies?

Frank: I prefer a defensive strategy. Engaging in war can be unpredictable — you don’t always know who you’re fighting against or who their allies might be. War can be time-consuming and requires constant attention, as being offline often means being vulnerable. I also avoid extensive social interactions with other players, as knowing them can complicate matters. For example, if you know the owner of a planet or artifact, you may hesitate to attack or steal from them. Therefore, I prefer to maintain anonymity and avoid unnecessary conflicts.

ddy: A brief question: What is the longest duration of a war you have experienced?

Frank: I don’t recall the exact duration, but it was at least two days. On one occasion, I was expanding my planets and encroached upon some of ordengg’s territory. This led to a prolonged conflict, as he persistently chased and attacked me (classicj and ddy both laugh 😄). He had one level 9 double-range planets, which made the situation even more challenging. I remember being on the verge of going offline for a meal, but I had to stay active to avoid significant disadvantages. During this period, I had to stay up very late and fight continuously.

ddy: How much did you approximately sleep during that time?

Frank: During the war, I might have slept only about 3 hours a day.

ddy: And how about you, classicj?

classicj: I tend to prefer an offensive approach.

ddy: The first time I encountered you, you sent a Titan to my planet to disrupt its energy accumulation. (classicj laughs 😄)

classicj: Yeah, I did that to several players, lol. Due to the fog of war, you can’t see where other players are or who is around. The fog of war means you don’t know the locations of other players, and hopefully they don’t know yours. If they are “reasonable”, they typically play for a maximum of about 8 hours a day. This creates an opportunity where, with me being in a different time zone, I often played when others were asleep. I used this to my advantage, targeting planets when players were offline. I also focused on less obvious strategies, such as attacking smaller supporting planets to disrupt consistent energy generation rather than focusing solely on larger, more intimidating planets. This approach allowed me to win many battles by leveraging strategies that were less conventional.

ddy: What is the difference in experience between playing Dark Forest with friends and playing solo?

classicj: I played official rounds solo, but most of the community rounds I’ve participated in have been with friends. Playing with friends definitely offers a different experience. When you’re working with friends, there’s a lot more to manage. You might feel obligated to assist them if they’re in need or if you’ve taken their planets. This dynamic requires you to have a broader perspective on the overall game, as you must consider not just your own strategy but also coordinate with your teammates. In contrast, when playing solo, all the information you need is directly available on your screen, and there’s less to manage in terms of coordination and communication.

ddy: I recall a time when we participated in a Dark Forest community round organized by 277DAO as a team. Towards the end of the game, I was overwhelmed with managing many planets and couldn’t keep up with the messages on Discord. When I eventually checked the messages, I saw that classicj was quite frustrated (classicj laughs 😄) because we had differing views on the game situation and our next steps. Fortunately, we were able to resolve the misunderstanding through communication and ended up performing well in that community round.

Frank: I always play solo. In some community rounds, I often recognize who I’m competing against for the top positions. When we know each other well, we sometimes avoid direct conflict. Occasionally, I create two accounts to try to get both of them into the rankings.

ddy: What are your thoughts on creating multiple accounts? Do you think it provides a significant advantage? Do you prefer playing with multiple accounts or focusing on just one? How do you feel about sybils for onchain games overall?

Frank: Using multiple accounts can provide a strategic advantage because it allows for resource sharing, particularly with artifacts. I typically focus on keeping my main account at the top of the leaderboard and use a secondary account to also achieve a high ranking. This approach helps me accounts secure better positions in the game, contributing to overall success.

classicj: Personally, I’ve only created additional accounts for Dark Forest in v0.6 Round 5, primarily due to the introduction of the Mothership and its mechanics. Before that, I only played with one account and sent my other invites codes to irl friends, though unfortunately none stuck around. The mechanics of Junk limiting expansion also prompted me to create these secondary accounts to transfer more Junk to my main account. Although managing multiple accounts can be complex, it can provide some advantages, depending on the games configuration. I prefer for games to steer away from providing advantages for multiple accounts, and I expect most players agree. Games probably need to steer towards exponential power increases on single accounts to reduce the long-term effectiveness of multiple accounts, and attempt to minimize the unique bonuses granted to accounts, such as the single mothership that was given to an account in Dark Forest.

ddy: Does the plugin system improve or worsen the game?

classicj: In my opinion, plugins are fantastic. Having used mods in games like Civilization, Skyrim, and City Skylines, I find plugins enhance the gameplay experience. For example, plugins that provide maps or automate repetitive tasks are incredibly useful. However, I can see how automation bots can undermine the game’s challenge and enjoyment, as playing against a bot is less engaging than competing with real players.

Frank: Plugins are beneficial in various scenarios, but they can create an imbalance for newcomers who may not know how to use them effectively. Veteran players often have access to more plugins and may even develop their own, putting newcomers at a disadvantage. For a game to be fair, it should ensure an equal playing field for all players. Thus, I believe games should avoid giving experienced players an unfair edge through plugins.

classicj: While plugins do provide an advantage, I feel that they are almost a part of the learning curve in these games. Dark Forest had a range of plugins available to everyone, which was incredibly helpful. With recent advancements in AI tools, it’s now easier for those without significant coding experience to create their own simple plugins. To me, this encourages learning and can be a engaging aspect of the gameplay.

ddy: Moving on to zkSNARKs. As we know, Dark Forest is a multiplayer online real-time strategy game that utilizes zkSNARKs. For players who are not familiar with the technology, how does zero-knowledge proof affect the gaming experience?

classicj: For those who aren’t aware, the zkSNARKs technology is what allows Dark Forest to have “ZK fog of war”, which hides information about the game state. Players make moves in the universe, but you only see information relevant to the coordinates you have explored. While this is an intriguing proof of concept, it can make the game unfair. For instance, I once saw someone with high-end GPUs hashing the map thousands of times faster than I could due to my low-end PC. This created a significant gap between players with different hardware capabilities, leading to an imbalance based on economic access.

ddy: If we removed plugins and zkSNARKs, would it improve the game?

classicj: Removing zkSNARKs might disappoint those interested in the technology’s application, but it could make the game more enjoyable for players by providing a complete view of the map from the start. Removing the in-game plugins menu, on the other hand, would not completely solve the issue as game mechanics would still be reverse-engineered and custom clients could be created. Making plugins more accessible and easy to use is a good approach to lessen the advantage for more technically skilled players.

Frank: You can adjust the API before the game starts, then even experienced players will cost time to adapt to plugins. However, for very short rounds, it’s often better to focus on gameplay rather than technical modifications. Onchain games are generally more about gameplay than technical tweaking.

ddy: Do you have any tips to share with new players, and any thoughts on your contributions to the community?

classicj: My advice for new players is to spend time testing and exploring the game. Dark Forest is about space exploration after all, and experiencing the vastness of the game can be very exciting. Since v0.6 Round 5, I’ve been a moderator for the Dark Forest Discord, helping new players understand the game and guiding them as they progress, and with my limited technical knowledge, I’ve done what I can to connect new developers who are interested Dark Forest to continue the experiment in their own way.

Frank: For newcomers, it’s crucial to maximize your playtime, especially on the first day. Focus on capturing key locations and higher-level targets. My primary advice is to persist and not give up easily. Even if faced with challenges from top players like ordengg, staying active and defending yourself can make a difference.

classicj: Definitely, stock up on coffee ( ddy and Frank laugh 😁).

Frank: I hope we can attract more new players and make the game more accessible. Innovation and ideas to engage newcomers would be beneficial.

classicj: I’m excited to see what new mechanics will be implemented. I feel that the overall number of resources in the game is relatively low compared to other games; here, we mainly have energy, silver, and artifacts. I am looking forward to seeing some innovation in this aspect. I’m also excited to see how the game itself might experiment with different formats, such as shorter rounds, like 24 or 48 hours. We’ve also had events like 30-minute rounds or speedrun competitions before. As of now, I am not aware of any permanent Dark Forest universe, so I think creating a permanent Dark Forest universe could be an interesting idea. It could allow anyone to join and continue for many years, or indefinitely, and we could see how it plays out over a long period, observing how different players rise and fall, how their interest grows and wanes.