📒Summary / 内容总结:

（本期节目是中文录制）持续低迷冷却的 crypto 市场让不少人陷入思考和迷茫。对于相当一部分 Web3 参与者来说，这是 ta 们入圈后的第一个熊市。市场低迷期会持续多久？触底之后又该以什么样的心态应对？今天做客节目的是 2015 年入圈，穿越牛熊的 Web3 OG 余文卿，他在刚入圈时，就交了一笔价值 2000 比特币的学费。老余分享了进入 Web3 行业 7 年后自我认知的改变，和他认为 Web2 开发者在 Web3 行业里潜在的职业发展方向。

(This episode is in Chinese) The continued downturn and cooling crypto market has left many people confused. For a significant number of Web3 participants, this is the first bear market since they joined the community. How long will the market downturn last? What kind of mindset should we adopt after the bottom is reached? Today's guest is Web3 OG Yu Wenqing, who joined the circle in 2015 and has survived the bulls and bears, and paid a tuition fee worth 2000 bitcoins when he first joined the crypto community. Yu shares how his self-perception has changed after 7 years in the Web3 industry, and the potential career direction for Web2 developers in the Web3 industry.

👨Featuring Guest / 嘉宾：

Wenqing Yu, Co-Founder of KNN3

🎙️Host / 主持人：

Hana (<https://twitter.com/afrazhaowang>)

💻Post-production / 后期制作：

Sain (<https://twitter.com/Sainwellx_OnAir>) 

Jane Cho (<https://twitter.com/caojin_13>)

🧵Episode breakdown / 时间轴：

【2:57】 2015 v.s. 2023：加密市场有什么不同？ What are the differences between the crypto market in 2015 and 2023? 

【09:32】触底之后的心理？What is the psychology after hitting the bottom? 

【20:43】“Web3” 出现之前的 Web3 从业者都如何形容自己？How did Web3 practitioners describe themselves before the emergence of “Web3”? 

【23:29】Web3 到底是求真的还是求存的？Is Web3 seeking truth or existence? 

【29:06】Web2 和 Web3 之间是对立关系吗? Is there a confrontation between Web2 and Web3? 

【34:31】被忽视的 Web3 岗位：DevRel. The ignored Web3 positions: DevRel 

【42:18】对 FTX 事件的看法 What is your opinion of the FTX event? 

【49:36】接下来的 Web3 会是什么形态？What will the next Web3 look like? 

【54:48】KNN3 的广告时间！KNN3 shilling time!

About Web3 Revolution / 关于 Web3 Revolution：

这是一档由 Mask Network 孵化赞助的探索 Web3 领域的双语播客，通过对话，联结在 Web3 这场社会实验中最前沿的参与者、行动者、创新者、投资者、KOL们。

Sponsored and incubated by Mask Network, Web3 Revolution is a bilingual podcast that explores the Web3 space, connecting participants, actors, innovators, investors, and KOLs at the forefront of the Web3 social experiment through conversations.

The following is the transcript of the podcast

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“我用比特币给自己在美国的账户交学费，当时每年都要往美国转一些钱交学费，当时（就用比特币）交了第一笔学费，后来成为到目前为止，人生当中最大的一笔学费。”

“I used Bitcoin to pay for tuition fees for my account in the US. Every year I had to transfer some money to the US for tuition fees. At that time (I used Bitcoin) to pay for my first tuition fee, which later became the biggest tuition fee in my life so far.”

👧Afra：

大家好，欢迎收听 Web3 Revolution，这是一档关于探索 Web3 领域的双语博客。通过对话连接 Web3 这场社会实验中最前沿的参与者、行动者、创新者、投资者，还有KOL们你能够在小宇宙、Spotify、Apple Podcast 等泛用型播客客户端订阅和收听本节目。

本节目由 Mask Network 赞助播出，以教育、分享信息以及对话为目的，我们会尽量提供准确的行业信息，但是本播客内容不作为投资建议，我是主持人 Hana。

今天我们请来了一个非常有意思的嘉宾，邀请他是源于应该几个月前我们在 Palo Alto 一个咖啡厅的一场对话。当时我忧心忡忡地问在座的几个人，这场熊市真的太惨了，什么时候见底？今天的嘉宾老余就非常淡定的说，等着吧，等到各种各样的 Web3 的群都散了，大家纷纷跳船不干，说再也不碰 crypto，可能熊市才真正见底。

这也大概道出了我们的主题 —— 穿越牛熊，那么我们非常荣幸地请来了老余这位 OG，给我们讲一讲他穿越牛熊的一些故事。欢迎老余，要不要介绍一下自己？

Hello everyone, welcome to Web3 Revolution, a bilingual blog exploring the Web3 space. Through conversations, we connect with the most cutting-edge participants, activists, innovators, investors, and KOLs in this social experiment. You can subscribe and listen to the program on popular podcast clients such as Xiaoyu Universe, Spotify and Apple Podcast. 

This program is sponsored by Mask Network for the purpose of education, sharing information, and dialogue. We will try our best to provide accurate industry information, but the content of this podcast should not be taken as investment advice. I'm the host, Hana. 

Today we have a very interesting guest, whom we invited after a conversation in a coffee shop in Palo Alto a few months ago. At that time, I asked the people present with anxiety when the bear market will bottom out. Today's guest, Lao Yu, said calmly, wait until all kinds of Web3 groups have dispersed, everyone has jumped ship and said they will never touch crypto again, then maybe the bear market will really bottom out. 

This also roughly outlines our theme - Crossing Bull and Bear Markets. We are very honored to invite Lao Yu, an OG, to tell us some of his stories crossing bull.

👦Wenqing Yu

大家好，我是余文卿，可以叫我老余。我是 KNN3 的 co-founder。其实也不能算 OG，就是入圈比较早。其实在行业里面做的事情也非常有限。我是 2015 年加入这个行业的，一直看着行业起起伏伏的变化，2017 年应该说是置身其中，经历了第一次人生的牛市，然后 2018 年经历了最大的一次熊市。我觉得感受非常深，非常感谢邀请，来这边跟大家分享一下我的感受。

Hello everyone, I'm Yu Wenqing. I'm a co-founder of KNN3. Actually, I can't be counted as an OG in the industry, but I joined relatively early. In fact, the things I've done in this industry are very limited. I joined the industry in 2015, I watched the ups and downs of the industry, and in 2017, I felt like I was in the thick of it. I experienced my first bull market, and then in 2018 I experienced the biggest bear market. I feel this experience very deeply, and I'm very grateful for the invitation to come here and share my feelings with everyone.

👧Afra

老余 2015 年入圈，能不能给大家讲一下你是怎么入行的，然后跟大家讲一下，2015 年所谓的币圈，或者资本、市场，和现在 2022 年的 Web3 圈子有哪些差异？

You entered the crypto circle in 2015. Can you share with us  how you got into the industry and talk about the crypto circle in 2015, or the capital markets, and how it is different from the Web3 circle in 2022?

👦Wenqing Yu

我 2015 年加入这个行业，当时大学刚刚毕业。最早接触比特币是在大学的时候。大概是 2013 年左右，当时有一帮玩得比较好的，有工程师背景的朋友，偶然之间聊天就聊到这个事儿，说挺有意思的。比特币的白皮书上写，这是一个去中心化的支付系统。我们觉得一个支付系统一般都要依赖银行或者是政府背书的一些机构来形成结算，如果是一个去中心化的，这个事情应该是怎么样去构建的？所以就比较好奇，当时网上的资料也比较有限，就是比特币的白皮书，一些少量的博客，和 Github 上面的一些文档。

看完以后觉得这个事很玄乎，如果真的能做出来，当时来看，对全球贸易，包括全球化商业的运作可能都会有很大的影响，但是不确定这事能不能成。所以我当时做了一件事情，就是用比特币给自己在美国的账户交学费。当时每年都要往美国转一些钱交学费，然后我就用比特币交了第一笔学费，后来这成了到目前为止，我人生当中最大的一笔学费，2000 个比特币。

I joined this industry in 2015 when I had just graduated from university. I first encountered Bitcoin around 2013 when I was in university. A group of my friends who had engineering backgrounds were chatting about it, and said it was quite interesting. The Bitcoin whitepaper said it was a decentralized payment system. We felt a payment system usually relies on banks or government-backed institutions to settle, so if it was decentralized, how could it be constructed? We were quite curious, and the online information was quite limited, with the Bitcoin whitepaper, a few blogs and some documentation on Github. 

After reading it, we thought it was quite mysterious. If it could really be done, it could have a big impact on global trade and globalization of business. But we weren’t sure if it would work. So I did something: I used Bitcoin to pay for my tuition in the US. Every year I had to transfer some money to the US for tuition, so I used Bitcoin for the first payment. It later became the biggest tuition payment of my life, 2000 BTC.

👧Afra

我知道有的人拿比特币买披萨，有的人拿比特币做小时工结算。但你直接交美国大学的学费是吗？

I know some people use Bitcoin to buy pizza and some use it to pay for hourly work. But do you pay for tuition at American universities with Bitcoin directly?

👦Wenqing Yu

对，当时做了一些测试，转了几笔小的，发现确实非常流畅。整个过程最长不超过五个小时，最短的一两个小时就完全过去了。当时很震惊，而且这种稳定性是和透明性是完全可以接受的，因为完全在链上。如果懂一些密码学的话，就知道哈希是不会骗人的，所以就觉得这很稳。当时做了一笔很大的交易，也算是一种挑战。非常兴奋，一上头就开始做这种比较疯狂的事儿。

Yes, I did some tests and made a few small transactions, and it was very smooth. The whole process did not take more than five hours and the shortest one was completed within one or two hours. It was quite a surprise and the stability and transparency was completely acceptable since it was completely on the chain. If you understand some cryptography, you know that the hash cannot be faked, so it felt very stable. We also did a big transaction at that time, which was also a kind of challenge. We were very excited and started to do something crazy right away.

👧Afra

当时是多少个来着？

How many Bitcoins did you transact for the tuition?

👦Wenqing Yu 

Approximately 2,000 Bitcoins.

👧Afra

我听到我都会哭死。

It's insane!

👦Wenqing Yu

所以说是交了一笔人生当中很大的学费对吧？早知道这个书不应该这么读的，应该立马辍学。

So it was a huge tuition fee for life, right? If I had known this, I would have dropped out right away.

👧Afra

这个经历很神奇，你当时怎么就敢用比特币去交学费？因为我有和你很相反的经历。我当时第一次听到比特币大概也是 2013 年、2014年那个时候。当时我印象特别深刻，当时有一个 NYU 还是哥伦比亚的一个大学教授发了一条推特，说如果人们连比特币都当真的话，那么这个世界上没有什么是可以相信的了，大概就是非常短的一个感慨。

我看完之后就印在脑子里面，之后我对比特币就一直持非常怀疑的态度。我觉得我当时被那句话洗脑，也像你一样，交了一笔人生的学费。因为我也是了解这个概念是比较早的。

This experience is amazing. How did you dare to pay tuition in Bitcoin at that time? I had a very different experience. I first heard about Bitcoin around 2013 or 2014. I had a very deep impression then. There was a professor from NYU or Columbia who posted a  tweet that if people really took Bitcoin seriously, then there was nothing left to believe in this world. It was a very short sentiment. After I read it, I remembered it and I have been very skeptical about Bitcoin ever since. I feel like I was brainwashed by that statement, as I was one of the earlier people to understand this concept.

👦Wenqing Yu

理解。我觉得有几个原因，一个是大学的时候也是比较叛逆的，而且那个时候的叛逆不是说像初中高中的那种，就是说比如说叛逆父母或者叛逆主流的这种思想，更多的叛逆是觉得，今天我们在研究的很多技术问题，是大家在这个技术还没有出来之前就定义好了，说这个技术未来是用来解决什么问题的。很多时候技术是跟在社会发展的后面，社会发展说今天我需要这个东西，我需要去用它来解决什么问题，然后才去研究技术。

但我当时的一个感受就是，我们当时学到很多东西，其实不应该只是用在今天的使用场景里面的。所以比特币又是一个像怪物一样的东西，出来以后从一开始就否定了整个传统的金融，或者说提出了各种各样的，传统金融一直以来想要规避的问题。比特币提出来一个完全不一样的逻辑，这是我愿意去研究它的最早的动机，就是发自内心对技术的叛逆。

第二个原因就是 DYOR，Do Your Own Research 对吧？那个时候大家 99% 可能都认为这是一个技术的骗局，我觉得 13、14 年的时候这个是很客观的。但是我觉得，做自己的验证。刚才也说到了，我去看比特币的文档、代码，虽然坦率说并不是所有的都能看懂，尤其像密码学的那些部分，还有包括共识层很多的底层原理，当时也没有马上可以理解。但是很简单，去做几次测试，交几百美金去做一些测试，如果你发现这个过程都是很稳的，那你就可以逐步把这个数字加大。可能今天整个 Web3 面临的很多复杂场景下，最实用的方法就是不断地去做测试，不断地往上面去增加更多的赌注，看它的天花板在哪里。可能最后通过几笔测试以后，天花板就加到了学费。

I understand. I feel there are several reasons, one of which is that I was quite rebellious during college, and the kind of rebellion at that time was not that of middle school or high school, i.e., rebellion against parents or mainstream thinking. Instead, more rebellion was the feeling that many of the technical issues we were studying at the time were defined before the technology emerged, i.e. what problem the technology was supposed to solve in the future. Many times, technology follows social development. Society develops and says today I need this thing and I need to use it to solve what problem, and then research the technology. 

But my feeling at the time was that many of the things we were learning at the time should not be used only in today's usage scenarios. So Bitcoin was like a monster, coming out and denying the entire traditional finance from the start, or proposing all kinds of problems that traditional finance has been trying to avoid. Bitcoin proposed a completely different logic, and this was my earliest motivation to study it, a kind of inner rebellion towards technology.

The second reason is DYOR (Do Your Own Research), right? At that time, 99% of people probably thought it was a technical scam, and I think it was quite objective in 2013-2014. However, I think it's important to do your own verification. As I just said, I looked at the Bitcoin documents and code, although I must admit not all of it can be understood, especially the cryptography parts, and many of the underlying principles of the consensus layer. At that time, it was not easy to understand. But it's easy to do some tests, spend a few hundred dollars to do some tests, and if you find that the process is stable, then you can gradually increase the amount. In many complex scenarios faced by Web 3 today, the most practical method is to keep testing, keep increasing bets to see where the ceiling is. After a few tests, the ceiling may be raised to tuition fees.

👧Afra

明白。你说你是在 2015 年接触比特币，被它的整个机制所吸引，之后 2018 年经历了一次很大的一个熊市，经历了一次触底。能不能讲一下当时触底的心情和状况？

I understand. You said you were exposed to Bitcoin in 2015, attracted by its entire mechanism, then experienced a big bear market in 2018 and experienced a bottom. Can you tell me what the mood and situation was like when it hit the bottom?

👦Wenqing Yu

这里可能要稍微给大家铺垫一下当时我们的背景，然后会感受到这个熊市对我们最直观的冲击是什么。2015 年大学毕业以后，我加入了比特币中国的一家交易所，当时做期货交易所的数据，后台服务的开发之类的。经历了大概两年左右，正好 2015 年是公链的元年，以太坊出来了。以太坊出来以后有很多的其他公链也在 16 年 17 年出现。其实 17 年整个牛市基本上就是由这种发行，还有公链相关的宏大的叙事展开的。

所以那个时候我们也满怀壮志，觉得这是一个很好的创业机会了。我们 17 年底 18 年初的时候开始做一个钱包的项目，因为钱包是整个公链和发行端的基础设施。所以在这种背景下，我们当时大概有一个七八个人的团队，已经开始正式运营了。

当时做了非常早的天使轮融资，但是没有正式地开始向机构去做这件事情。因为 2017 年的行情还不错，所以我们觉得可以再 build 一些东西，再去进行下一步。

正好这个时候就进入到 2018 年，整个阶梯跟 17 年完全反过来，每个月基本上都会比上个月变得更差，而且是在加速下落。尤其到 18 年下半年，发现很多当时我们认为蛮有希望的公链，还有一些很大的项目都开始逐渐凉了。身边很多平行的项目方、创业者都在往外面走，机构也开始变得不热情了，机构过段时间也关门了什么的。

当时身在其中，对于自己的项目来说，最直观的冲击就是，你觉得有那么好的机会，但是不知道这个周期到底有多长。站在 2018 年的维度来看，我们也想不到熊市会持续多久。可能 1 年 2 年，完全不知道。预估来说，可能希望最好是 6 个月对吧？当然有一些更悲观的是说，可能这个 hype 就结束了。这个不确定性带来的压力很大。

第二个不确定性是源于当时的项目比较单一。那个时候钱包还属于公链的基础设施。所以一旦看到一些主流的公链，比如当时以太坊，最低的时候已经到这差不多 100 美金附近了，最高的时候好像是 1000 多美金，跌掉了差不多 90% 以上的市值，更不要说其他的公链。所以觉得上游都已经快凉了，那我们在做的这件事情能不能持续下去？当时的压力其实是非常大的。

After giving a brief background of our situation at the time, you can feel the most direct impact of the bear market. After graduating from university in 2015, I joined a cryptocurrency exchange in Bitcoin China and was responsible for data of the futures exchange, as well as backend development. After about two years, 2015 was the first year of public chain, and Ethereum came out. After Ethereum, many other public chains emerged in 2016 and 2017. In fact, the whole bull market in 2017 was basically unfolded by these issuances and grand narratives related to the public chain.

At that time, we were full of ambition and felt that this was a great business opportunity. We started a wallet project at the end of 2017 and the beginning of 2018 because the wallet is the basic infrastructure of the entire public chain and issuance end. Under this background, we had a team of seven or eight people that had already begun to operate officially.

At the time, we did a very early angel round of financing, but we did not formally start pitching to institutional investors. Since the market in 2017 was still good, we felt we could build something more and take the next step.

Just as 2018 comes around, the entire market has reversed from 2017, with each month becoming worse than the last and the decline accelerating. Especially in the second half of 2018, we found that many of the promising public chains, as well as some big projects, have gradually cooled off. Many parallel project parties and entrepreneurs around me are heading out and the enthusiasm of the institutions has also begun to wane, with some institutions even closing their doors after a period of time.

At the time, the most immediate impact for my project was the feeling of having such a great opportunity, but not knowing how long it would last. Looking back from 2018, nobody could have predicted how long the bear market would last. It could be one or two years, nobody knew for sure. We could only hope for the best, that it would last six months, but there were also more pessimistic scenarios that the hype would be over soon. This uncertainty put a lot of pressure on us.

The second uncertainty stemmed from the project's single focus at the time. Back then, wallets belonged to the infrastructure of public chains. Once we saw some mainstream public chains, such as Ethereum at the time, the lowest was around US$100, and the highest was over US$1000, a drop of more than 90% in market value, not to mention other public chains. We felt that the upstream was almost done, so could we continue doing this? The pressure was actually very high at the time.

👧Afra

能再解释一下，你当时的项目是做什么的吗？当时我作为一个圈外人的观感来说，我就记得一堆项目方发空气币，这就是我对整个所谓的加密圈子和币圈的一种观感。

Can you explain again what your project was about? From my perspective as an outsider, I remember a lot of projects launching their own cryptocurrency. That is my perception of the so-called crypto and coin circles.

👦Wenqing Yu

当时其实那一波主要是 ICO 的发行端，还有公链端带起来的。我们做的其实相对比较平和一点，钱包以及相关的一些 SDK。但是那个时候各个方面都不是很成熟，比如我们当时做 EOS 钱包，去集成 EOS 的时候，EOS 还是测试网阶段。当时看来离商业化的周期可能还有两三年。

还有一个问题，当时很多这种也不能算空气币，但是很多应用端的东西，周期可能就更长了。比如当时聊 DeFi，今天来看就是蛮好的时间的。如果你那个时候做交易，可能就是 Uniswap，做一个聚合，可能就是 1 Inch。我们当时确实也看到了这些机会，但是离爆发的点可能还有两三年，就意味着这些价值很难马上捕获到钱包里面。所以当时的钱包和这些基础设施其实都蛮难的，今天我们也看到有些钱包依然跑出来了，但在那个时间点，估计跟我们的面临的情况都差不多。

At the time, the wave was mainly driven by ICO issuance and public chain, while we took a more moderate approach, developing wallets and related SDKs. However, all aspects were not very mature back then, such as when we were developing the EOS wallet and integrating EOS, EOS was still in the testnet stage. It seemed at the time that it might take two or three years to reach commercialization.

There is one more issue, back then many of these could not be counted as air coins, but many applications had longer cycles. For example, when we talked about DeFi, it was quite a good time now. If you traded at that time, it may have been Uniswap, and if you did aggregation, it may have been 1 Inch. We did see these opportunities at the time, but it may have taken two to three years to reach the explosion point, which meant it was difficult to capture these values into the wallet immediately. So the wallets and infrastructure back then were quite difficult, and today we see that some wallets have still come out, but at that time, it was probably similar to the situation we faced.

👧Afra

能够真正容忍巨大的不确定性，巨大的未知和巨大的恐惧，而且并能继续做当时正在做的事情，承担这种机会成本，这两个因素就决定了很多人没办法坚持到最后。老余你当时也在波哥大对吧？虽然说当时各种币价一直在跌，但是大家仿佛都不把币价当回事似的，还在不断做各种项目，是这样的状态。

Being able to truly tolerate huge uncertainty, huge unknowns, and huge fears, while still being able to continue doing what one was doing and bearing this opportunity cost, these two factors determined that many people could not persist until the end. Mr. Yu, were you in Bogota at that time? Even though the prices of various coins were falling at the time, it seemed like everyone was not treating it seriously and was still doing various projects, that was the situation.

👦Wenqing Yu

说到波哥大，我当时也蛮惊喜的。觉得那个趋势是在往下走的，但是整个波哥大非常热闹，而且很多新的项目还在往前推进，而且一些主流的大的项目还有自己的规划，而且在推出一些新的想法，我觉得这个还是蛮振奋的。

讲到这里，我觉得要谈三个角色。一个是牛市本身，第二个是我们作为身在其中的项目方，当然不是说最佳做法，但是说从我的角度，我会怎么去做。第三个是它的金融属性。

首先从趋势来说，其实我觉得这种总的区块链的发展，或者说任何一个新科技的发展，一定是由一波波的周期带动的。为什么是这样的？因为我们每一次建设的过程都是相对来说比较平和的，但每一次发行的时候都会有协同效应的。比如公链在上一个周期建设好了以后，第二个周期才会出现像智能合约相关的应用，出现细分领域，比如金融化、NFT 等等。所以一旦发行出来以后，比如我们最近看到的 Uniswap 上了 NFT的交易，对吧？这就是明显的协同效应，要有 DeFi 的爆发和 NFT 的爆发，才会有这样的产品出来。

所以每次一旦发行，市场会推动它，就是推动发行的周期，这个趋势会收敛，到形成一个聚合的效应。但是发行完之后，这就到了第二个效应就是金融效应。因为一旦有了这种产品端的协同效应以后，加上区块链本身对金融效应的这种非常原生，或者非常嵌入式的机制，金融的效应就会在发行效应的过程当中被催生。然后金融就会变成一个加速器一样，助长它的发展。

所以会发现，到后面这种巅峰发行端和产品端已经跟不上了。到了一个顶端以后，大家被迫凉下来，但实际上整个迭代的过程是按照周期走的。今天你通过金融没办法加速，比如 18 年没办法通过另外一波 hype 让区块链的开发变得更快。所以同样的，今天没有办法让智能合约满足很多今天的技术上的需求。比如对跨链，对预言机，对原子的互操作性，对吧？是没有办法通过把估值从 10 个亿抬到 100 个亿就可以快速解决这些技术问题的。所以说，这些周期又画出了整个趋势的阴线。

第三说到项目方自己。在波哥大的经历给了我很大的鼓励，因为当时也很明确了，我们不会认为 2022 年开始做一个项目，在同一年就会有很好的回收的机会。但是我们会看见接下来的 2023 年有没有机会？可能会有，但是不太会像 2020 年或者说 2017 年那样，很快就会有一个新的 hype。但这是一个很好的build的机会，因为各种各样的要素变得更便宜了，而且你会发现很多潜在的合作伙伴，上下游，都开始认真工作了。我觉得这个很重要，当大家都在聊发行，聊这个项目怎么去封装的时候，项目本身就很难去做整合，因为他们都没有在忙这个东西。

我觉得 2023 年实际上是一个很好的机会，已经有很多靠谱的项目方，已经有非常明显的往前的推进的现象。所以我觉得目前这两年是一个很好的 build 机会，要利用好我们的要素。

When it comes to Bogota, I was quite surprised at that time. I thought the trend was going down, but the whole Bogota was very bustling and many new projects were still advancing, and some mainstream big projects also had their own plans and were putting out some new ideas, and I think it was quite encouraging.

To conclude, I think we should look at three key roles. First, the bull market itself. Second, our role as project participants in it; of course we can't say what the best approach is, but from my perspective, how I would go about it. Third, its financial attributes.

To begin with, in terms of trend, I think the overall development of blockchain, or any new technology, is driven by waves of cycles. Why is this? Because each time we build something, it is relatively smooth, but each time it is issued, there will be synergistic effects. For example, after the public chain is built in the previous cycle, the second cycle will see the emergence of applications related to smart contracts, the emergence of subdivisions such as financialization, NFT, etc. Therefore, once issued, such as the NFT trading we recently saw on Uniswap, right? This is obviously a synergistic effect, and there must be a DeFi and NFT explosion to bring out such products.

Once issued, the market will drive it, which is the driving cycle of the issuance. This trend will converge to form an aggregation effect. However, after the issuance, the second effect is the financial effect. Once there is a collaborative effect on the product side, combined with the very native or embedded mechanism of the blockchain itself for the financial effect, the financial effect will be stimulated in the process of the issuance effect. Then, finance will become an accelerator, promoting its development.

It can be concluded that the peak issuance and product side has fallen behind. When it reaches the top, everyone is forced to cool down, but in fact the entire iteration process is going on in cycles. Today, through finance, it is not possible to accelerate, for example, in 2018, it is not possible to make blockchain development faster through another wave of hype. Therefore, today it is not possible to meet many of today's technical requirements for smart contracts. For example, cross-chain, oracles, and atomic interoperability, right? It is not possible to quickly solve these technical problems by raising the valuation from 1 billion to 10 billion. Therefore, these cycles have also drawn the downward trend of the entire trend.

Regarding the project itself, my experience in Bogota gave me great encouragement because it was clear at the time that we would not assume that we can start a project in 2022 and have a good chance of recovering in the same year. But could we see opportunities in 2023? Maybe, but not as quickly as in 2020 or 2017, when there was a new hype. But this is a good opportunity to build, because all sorts of elements have become cheaper and you will find many potential partners, upstream and downstream, starting to take it seriously. I think this is very important because when everyone is talking about issuance, how to package the project, it is difficult for the project itself to integrate because they are not busy with it.

I think 2023 is actually a great opportunity, with many reliable project parties and a very obvious forward-moving trend. Therefore, I think the next two years are a great opportunity to build on and take advantage of our resources.

** **

👧Afra

我还想听一听当时在文化和观感方面的差异。当 17 年 18 年还没有 Web3 这个概念出现的时候，你当时是怎么向你身边的朋友亲人解释你在做什么的呢？我们能够想象到，当你跟别人说我在做什么的时候，肯定会遭遇到一些偏见，遭遇到一些白眼对吧？

就在那个时候，因为 Web3 这个概念是一个相对超前，然后相对populist，群众热爱的概念，听起来好像是一个，跟随着科技进步而走向下一个时代的一个概念。但是 2017 年 2018 年的时候，你又是如何去解释和定义这个行业的？

I would like to hear about the cultural and perceptual differences back then. Before the concept of Web3 emerged in 2017 and 2018, how did you explain to your friends and family what you were doing? We can imagine that when you told people what you were doing, you would encounter some prejudice and eye-rolling. 

At that time, because Web3 was a relatively advanced and populist concept that the masses loved, it seemed like a concept that was moving towards the next era with the progress of technology. But how did you explain and define the industry in 2017 and 2018?

👦Wenqing Yu

首先，我们自己也在成长。14 年 15 年的时候是纯叛逆，17 年开始真的接触，开始做到一些事情以后，会发现这个事情确实没有那么简单，你要让外界去接受它，当时来看是很难的一件事。所以我们试图用一些大家能够理解的语境来解释它。

对于普通的老百姓来说，这是一个投资的机会，还是一个投机的机会。比如说你去跟父母说的时候，他不在乎这对全球的货币政策有什么影响，他跟在乎买这个东西跟买理财产品有什么区别。

At first, we were growing as well. In the years of 2014 and 2015, it was pure rebellion. Starting in 2017, we really started to engage and, after doing some things, we found that it was not that simple. It was difficult to get the outside world to accept it. So we tried to explain it in a context that everyone could understand. 

For ordinary people, this is an investment opportunity or a speculation opportunity. For example, when you talk to your parents, they don't care about the impact of global monetary policy, but they care about the difference between buying this thing and buying financial products.

所以这一点，我觉得我们要非常的小心地去尝试了。因为过去我们会过分承诺，说这个东西绝对比中心化的理财好，因为你自己的私钥就是你自己的资产。这个角度是对的，但其实比如说我们的父母在理财的时候，要考虑的另外一个问题就是波动性。确实数字货币的波动性还是很高的，所以我觉得我们做错了对比的对象。不应该用理财产品去跟他比，应该去跟比如说当年的股市去比，对吧？今天来看这件事情已经变得不证自明了，对吧？我们过去觉得股市出现大波动的概率很小，对吧？经过了过去的三年，我们知道股市割起来其实也蛮凶的。所以有些事情，是经过一些具体的事件发生了以后被验证了，所以那个时候我还比较像愤青一样，老喜欢跟身边的人去分享这种东西。

Therefore, I think we need to be very careful in trying this. In the past, we promised too much, saying that this is definitely better than centralized finance because your own private key is your own asset. This perspective is correct, but in fact, when our parents manage their finances, they have to consider another issue, namely volatility. Digital currency volatility is indeed still very high, so I think we made the wrong comparison object. We shouldn't compare it with financial products, but with something like the stock market back then, right? Nowadays, this is no longer self-evident, right? We used to think that the probability of a big fluctuation in the stock market is very small, right? After the past three years, we know that the stock market can actually be quite violent. So some things are verified only after some specific events happen, so at that time I was still like a young radical, and I always liked to share these things with people around me.

但是后来，我觉得 2020 年以后我们真的看到了很多当年期待能够出来，然后真的也出来了的东西。你说ok，这个世界确实是我们想象的那个样子，它依然会照着逻辑的必然去发展的，所以我们也不用太担心，也不要太有压力，就给他一定的时间。所以其实到了2020 年以后，我很少去跟别人去辩论为什么数字货币好，什么东西不好，或者是区块链就一定怎么样，我觉得没有什么辩论的必要。

Later on, I felt that after 2020, we really saw many things that we had been expecting and they eventually came to fruition. You could say that the world has developed as we had imagined and will continue to do so according to its own logic. Therefore, we don't need to be too worried or stressed, and just give it some time. So, after 2020, I rarely debate with others about why digital currencies are good or bad, or how blockchain should be. I think there is no need for such debates.

这就引出来了我们最近团队内部一直在讨论的一个观点：Web3 到底是求真的，还是求存的？

This brings us to a point that our team has been discussing recently: is Web3 about truth-seeking or survival?

我们的观点是，Web3 有没有方向性？首先我认为 Web3 是没有方向性的，Web3 唯一的方向就是为了让一个商业、一个金融体系，或者说让一个产品或者组织能够更好、更有力地活下去，活得更久一些，或者然后成长得更大一些，所以他的目标就是求存的。

但在求存的过程当中，它没有一个必然的边界，就是说一定要是怎么样的才是 Web3 的，或者一定要有个什么样的特质才是 Web3 的。但是你可以看到，Web3 的对立面是有方向性的。比如我们今天在北美，为什么 Web3 的主要的矛盾是挑战那些大的技术公司，比如说 Facebook、Twitter，我觉得其中一个原因就是，我们看到一个明确的矛盾。

Our view is, does Web3 have directionality? First I think Web3 is directionless, the only direction of Web3 is to enable a business, a financial system, or a product or organization to better and more powerfully survive, survive longer, or grow larger, so its goal is to survive. 

But in the process of survival, it does not have an inevitable boundary, that is to say, it must be what Web3 is, or it must have a certain characteristic to be Web3. But you can see that the opposite of Web3 has directionality. For example, why is the main contradiction of Web3 in North America today challenging the big tech companies like Facebook and Twitter? I think one of the reasons is that we see a clear contradiction.

这些公司从用户的手里面免费（当然也不能说免费）获得了数据以后，其实用户不知道他拿去干嘛，或者说他拿去干嘛跟你没有关系。这些数据可以卖给 Cambridge Analytic 这样的公司对吧？当然，我们可以引入国会的管理，但管理是非常有限的，而且管理会带来很多的自身的问题，所以说，这是本质上从它的核心机制就造成的，我们怎么去理解、管理、控制数据。

你会发现，这些矛盾在 Web3 里是有对应的。比如我们提出来要让用户通过 Web3 的技术有绝对的控制权，或者说要让用户在 Web3 里面拥有不可辩驳的隐私性等等，这些都是从 Web3 的对立面引申出来的。

比如在亚洲，我们对资金流动自由性的问题，对吧？也是因为对立面太让你难受了，所以说我们就觉得，是不是 Web3 的技术可以帮助我们解决这些问题。所以 Web3 本身不具有方向性，但是它的对立面已经帮他做好了生存方向的决定。

These companies have obtained data from users for free (of course not for free), and users do not know what they will do with it, or it has nothing to do with you. Can these data be sold to companies like Cambridge Analytic? Of course, we can introduce Congressional management, but the management is very limited and management will bring a lot of its own problems, so it is essentially caused by its core mechanism, how we understand, manage and control data. 

You will find that these contradictions are corresponding in Web3. For example, we propose to give users absolute control over Web3 technology, or to give users an indisputable privacy in Web3, all of which are derived from the opposite side of Web3. 

For example, in Asia, we have the issue of freedom of capital flow, right? It is also because the opposite side makes you too uncomfortable, so we feel that can Web3 technology help us solve these problems? So Web3 itself does not have a directional, but its opposite side has already made a decision for its survival direction.

👧Afra

所以你的信念就是，Web3 的金融属性能够最大程度上去释放人类的创造能力，或者是最大程度地让人们能够聚拢一些资源。

** **

Therefore, your belief is that the financial attributes of Web3 can unleash human creativity to the greatest extent, or allow people to gather resources to the greatest extent.

👦Wenqing Yu

我觉得从今天来看，我就用刚才的公式对吧？Web3 到底能不能帮我们做一些事情，我们从今天来看，如果没有这些要素，对人类的发展会不会有很大的影响，对吧？这个是根本的判断。如果我们感觉货币和资产的流通体系在今天这个范式下已经遇到天花板了，那么在架构和框架不改的情况下，能不能往上面突破，我认为是很难的。

比如我们刚才聊到的全球化的货币体系和贸易，都是需要单一的国家的主权货币作为底层。而主权货币是由国家发行的，所以一定是国家本身的利益优先。

当这两个发行国的利益和全球化的经济体的整体利益相冲突的时候，他会毫不犹豫的选择他国家的利益，所以这就造成了货币体系的天花板，对吧？同样的金融体系也是一脉相承地继承了这个观点。所以我觉得回过来再看 Web3，如果可以解决这样的问题， Web3 在这个方面的未来的潜力就会很大。

I think as of today, we can use the formula we just discussed, right? Can Web3 help us do something? If these elements are not present, will it have a big impact on human development? That's the fundamental judgment. If we feel that the circulation system of money and assets has already hit the ceiling under the current paradigm, then it will be very difficult to break through if the architecture and framework remain unchanged. 

For example, the global monetary system and trade we just discussed all require a single country's sovereign currency as the underlying layer. And the sovereign currency is issued by the country, so it must be the country's interests first. 

When the interests of the two issuing countries conflict with the overall interests of the global economy, they will unhesitatingly choose the interests of their own country, which leads to the ceiling of the currency system, right? The same financial system also inherits this point of view in succession. So I think if Web3 can solve such problems, then the potential of Web3 in this regard in the future will be very great.

👧Afra

明白，你刚刚说到 Web3的对立面，就是传统的 Web2 公司，我们也能从一些各种各样的痕迹中发现 Web2 囤积、剥削用户数据的模式。卖广告的这种模式可能是卷到头、卷到底了。最近大家如果跟踪各种硅谷的新闻的话，也知道大科技公司在一波波的裁员。

这就意味着肯定有一部分程序员，有一部分 Web2 的老兵涌入 Web3。你作为一个经历过好几轮牛熊的 OG，你对这些进入 Web3 的新人有什么建议吗？

** **

Understood, you just mentioned the opposite of Web3, which is the traditional Web2 companies. We can also find from various clues the pattern of Web2 hoarding and exploiting user data. The model of selling ads may be winding down. If people have been tracking Silicon Valley news recently, they would know that the big tech companies are going through massive layoffs. 

This means that there must be some programmers and Web2 veterans entering Web3. As an OG who has experienced several bull and bear markets, what advice do you have for these newcomers entering Web3?

👦Wenqing Yu

我首先觉得对他们来说是机会非常大的，而且我甚至觉得说今天今天我们铺垫好的 Web3，实际上有时候我们会觉得这好像是一个诺亚方舟一样对吧？

整个行业你找不到任何一个替代行业，可以比如说你是做人工智能的，或者说你是做数据的，你已经找到找不到任何一个比互联网体量更大更有机会的一个行业的时候，出现了Web3，好像诺亚方舟一样，但我觉得这就是发展的必然。

I first feel this is a huge opportunity for them, and I even feel that the Web3 we have established today is like a Noah's Ark, right? 

There is no other alternative industry that can compare to the internet in terms of scale and opportunity. With the emergence of Web3, it is like a Noah's Ark, but I think this is the inevitable development.

我刚才听到你说的，Web3 的对立面是那些 Web2 公司。我稍微稍微改述一下。

Web3 的对立面其实不是 Web2 的公司，因为 Web2 的公司本身是没有自我意识，没有脑子的。我不是攻击他，我的意思是，一个 Web2 公司，或者大一点的成熟公司的发展基本上受三个东西的影响。

** **

I heard what you said earlier, that the opposite of Web3 are Web2 companies. Let me restate it a bit. 

The opposite of Web3 are not necessarily Web2 companies, because Web2 companies lack self-awareness and brains. I'm not attacking them, what I mean is that the development of a Web2 company, or a bigger, more mature company, is mostly influenced by three things.

第一个是他自己本身商业的就是商业模型的限制，第二个是受到资本的限制，资本倾向于某一个领域，那个领域自然而然地就开始发展，但是反过来资本不青睐它的时候，它的资源就被釜底抽薪了。第三个就是底层要素的转换，对互联网公司来说，我觉得最大的要素，一个是员工，还有一个是用户。

The first is the business model itself, which is limited. The second is limited by capital; capital tends to focus on one area and that area naturally begins to develop. However, when capital doesn't favor it, its resources are cut off. The third is the transformation of underlying factors. For Internet companies, I think the biggest factors are employees and users.

所以我觉得今天最大的一个长期挑战是，用户越来越认为自己的隐私很重要，越来越认为说今天你把我的数据卖给了一个我都不知道的公司，去干了我都不知道事情，而这个事情很可能还跟我的价值观是冲突的，这件事情我是越来越不能接受。我认为这并不是 Web2 的公司所决定的，而是 Web2 的这种形式所决定的。所以说我觉得最大的对立方是 Web2的商业模式。刚才说到，对于这些新进的，不管是开发者来说或者从业者，我觉得是一个很好的机会。

I feel that the biggest long-term challenge today is that users increasingly view their privacy as important and increasingly feel that if you sell my data today to a company I don't know, to do something I don't know, and this thing is likely to conflict with my values, this is something I am increasingly unable to accept. I don't think this is something decided by Web2 companies, but rather something decided by the form of Web2. So I think the biggest opposing force is the business model of Web2. Just now I said that for these newcomers, whether it's developers or practitioners, I think it's a great opportunity.

今天 Web3 的需求远远比我们看到的要大，而且 Web3 的需求对于那些真正有能力的人来说，这空间还要比今天看到的更大，因为刚才说了，我们刚刚从发行的最热端，然后往下走。发行实际上是不太需要真正的有实力的工程师的，或者说，发行热的时候需要那种可以快速构建原型的工程师，但是等到进入到真正的 build的时候，是需要一些有能够交付产品级别的能力的这些要素，所以我觉得这个时间进入是非常好的。

Today the demand for Web3 is much greater than what we are seeing, and the demand for Web3 is even bigger than what we are seeing today for those with genuine capability, as we just said, we are just starting from the hottest end of issuance, and then going down. Issuance actually doesn't require too much real engineering strength, or in other words, when issuance is hot, engineers who can quickly build prototypes are needed, but when entering into real building, it requires some elements with the ability to deliver product-level capabilities, so I think this is a great time to enter.

还有一个好处是什么？今天你进来的一家公司不管它估值可能几千万对吧？但是你可以想象，只要这家公司不要太离谱，正儿八经的能够把它的产品交付出来，我觉得到下一波的趋势开始的时候，基本上都是优质资产。

Another benefit is that no matter what the valuation of the company you came into today may be worth millions, you can imagine that as long as the company is not too far-fetched and able to deliver its products properly, I believe that when the next wave of trends begins, they will all be quality assets.

为什么优质？因为下一次牛市开始的时候才去准备的那些项目，显然周期不会超过两个季度，对吧？然后一个build了两年的很靠谱的公司，跟另外一个准备了两个季度的公司，这里面的差距，你是可以感受到的，而且给定下一次的周期的话又会比这次更成熟。所谓的成熟，比如说他对用户的就是对你的产品的吸引力，对你的产品的成熟度以及你的纵深能力，这些要求肯定比这一轮又要变得更高，所以显然不太会是那种一两个季度快速出来一个小产品，然后就可以去做发行的，这是没有办法可比的。所以我觉得这个时候进入是一个非常好的机会。

Why is it of high quality? Because the projects that were prepared for the next bull market obviously cannot take more than two quarters, right? Then you have a reputable company that has been built for two years, compared to another that has been prepared for two quarters, you can certainly feel the difference. And given the next cycle, the requirements will be even higher than this time. So obviously it won't be a situation where a small product can be quickly released in one or two quarters and then go for an issuance, which is incomparable. So I think this is a very good opportunity to get in.

👧Afra

你对新人有什么建议？除了点头示意说 “请大家上船” 之外，有没有一个《船上101守则》？

What advice would you give to newcomers? Is there a "Ship 101 Rules" in addition to the nod and wink of saying "All aboard"?

👦Wenqing Yu

对，我觉得有几个点。其实 2017 年我们也算是新进的从业者，我觉得第一，要管理好自己的预期，不要觉得我 2022 年加入，2023 年就可以如何如何，对吧？我觉得对预期要管理好，给自己一个 3~5 年的时间去发展。我觉得今天最难的就是我们刚刚从hype下来，就是大家这个状态还没有适应。第二个我觉得还是要build一些自己在这个行业里面核心的这种职场能力。

Yes, I feel there are a few points. In fact, 2017 was also a new practitioner for us, and I think the first thing is to manage our expectations, don't think that I will join in 2022 and can do something in 2023, right? I think the expectations should be managed well, give yourself a 3-5 year period to develop. I think the most difficult thing today is that we have just come out of the hype, that is, everyone has not yet adapted to this state. The second thing I think is to build some core workplace skills in this industry.

这个点听上去好像还有点奇怪，为什么？因为其实过去的过去的两波周期，尤其第一波就不说了，第二波里面其实也有那种情况，大学刚刚毕业，然后进来，比如说到某一个公司一开始还是实习生，然后很快就变成了一个主力或者是早期的创始人，然后很快就就成功了。我觉得这种情况下一轮可能依然还有，但是肯定会更少，为什么？

This point sounds a bit strange - why? Because, in fact, the past two cycles, especially the first one, have seen the same situation: fresh college graduates coming in to a company as interns and quickly becoming a main force or early founder, and then quickly succeeding. I think this situation may still exist in the next round, but it will definitely be less - why?

因为刚才说了，下一轮产品的纵深和商业的复杂度会变得更高，所以说你更加需要有专业能力的人，而这些专业能力还不光是从Web2简单的迁移过来。举个例子吧，我们最近就在讨论，说一个技术团队里面其中一个很重要的岗位叫做 DevRel：Developer Relation。

As I just said, the next round of products will have a higher level of complexity and scope, so you will need people with specialized skills that go beyond a simple Web2 migration. For example, we are recently discussing the importance of a role called DevRel (Developer Relation) within a technical team.

这个岗位实际上当然说在 Web2 也有，比如 Google、Amazon 也会有，但是其实在web3里面是一个非常重要，而且未来会变得更重要的岗位。这个岗位要有技术的开发能力，又了解市场，更重要的是了解下游的客户，他的客户又特非常有特点，也是比如说也是一些开发者或者是一些技术端的一些潜在的用户，然后他知道怎么去用技术的话语构建一个商业的故事，和界定它的商业的价值。这种人才是非常综合的，在 Web2 不会见到大量这样的岗位需求。

This role is certainly present in Web2, such as Google and Amazon, but in Web3 it is a very important role and will become even more important in the future. This role requires technical development capabilities, an understanding of the market, and more importantly an understanding of downstream customers, who have their own characteristics. For example, they could be potential users on the technical side, and then they know how to use technical language to construct a business story and define its commercial value. This kind of talent is very comprehensive and will not be seen in large numbers in Web2.

👧Afra

我特别同意，因为我自己做一些 Web3 项目和项目之间的传统意义上定位的这种 BD business development，谈一些项目和产品的合作。我发现 BD这个岗位其实是深深不受Web3这种开源的有这个组合精神的程序员的信任，因为我缺少技术背景。

I strongly agree as I have done some Web3 projects and carried out traditional BD (business development) for product and project collaboration. I find that BD is not deeply trusted by open source, programmer-oriented Web3 because of my lack of technical background.

我在聊第一轮，第二轮的时候，我没有办法就把技术很好对接起来，但是像你说的这种Dev Relations，他自己本身就知道这个coding是怎么work的，他知道你像说的上游和下游之间是怎么对，接起来就是这样子的技术人才，然后以及能说会道，然后可以把一个项目用非常得体的得体和专业的方式去描述出来的这样的人，就像你说的是一个非常稀缺的资源，然后同时这样的这样的人才在 Web2 的世界是不需要的，因为 Web2 都是大家自己纷纷建城堡，然后自己卷个被子在自己的城堡里面住，不需要像 Web3 一样去和很多不同的项目方聊天。但是 Web3 有点像是进入了一个游乐场，这个游乐场里面大家都拿着很多块乐高，然后不断地把你的乐高拼在别人的乐高身上。如何达成你拼在我身上，我拼在你身上这样的协议，就需要老余说的 Dev Relations 这样的人才去帮助完成对话，然后把这些乐高块接起来。

I was discussing the first and second rounds and I was not able to connect the technical aspects well. As you said, this kind of Dev Relations personnel would know how coding works, how the upstream and downstream connections should be made, so they are the kind of talent with technical skills and communication abilities to describe a project in a proper and professional manner. Such personnel are rare resources, and they are not needed in the Web2 world because everyone generally builds their own castles and wraps themselves in a blanket inside. Web3 is more like entering a playground where everyone is holding Lego blocks and continuously trying to attach their Lego blocks to others. How to reach an agreement about attaching your blocks to mine and vice versa requires the help of Dev Relations personnel to help facilitate the conversation and connect the blocks.

👦Wenqing Yu

没错，我觉得这是 Web3 的底层原理决定的，它是通过技术革命为手段的社会革命。光是知道如何用一个具体的技术解决一个具体的问题，是不足以成为一个优秀的 Web3 的产品的。它一定也要是一个会定义问题的一个产品。比如说像我们今天聊 DAO 对吧？大家说，DAO 不就是一帮人用多签钱包管理自己吗？

Right, I think this is determined by the underlying principles of Web3. It is a social revolution by means of a technological revolution. Just knowing how to solve a specific problem with a specific technology is not enough to be an excellent Web3 product. It must also be a product that can define problems. For example, let's talk about DAO today, right? Everyone says, isn't DAO just a group of people managing their own money with multisig wallets? Actually, DAO is a product that can define its own problems.

我觉得不是的。因为 DAO 把传统的公司运作颠倒过来，传统公司说我有一个具体的问题，然后我今天要做一个什么样的产品，所以我还有一帮人对吧？所以你看传统的 BP 都是problem，然后solution，然后接下来 value proposition，你的所有的后续的比如说你怎么去构建它，然后最后你的团队。但是DAO不一样，DAO 是一帮在某一个领域有专业爱好专业能力的人聚合在一起以后，然后再去看说我们今天面临的问题是不是需要被重新构造。所以他们本身是一帮提出问题的人。

I don't think so. Because DAO reverses the traditional way of company operation. Generally, a traditional company starts with a specific problem, then what kind of product to make today, and then you have a group of people? So you can see that the traditional BP is problem first, then solution, then value proposition, then you figure out how to construct it, and finally the team. But DAO is different. A DAO is a group of people who have professional hobbies and abilities in a certain field, and then they decide whether the problem they are facing today needs to be restructured. So they are the ones who raise the questions.

所以从这个角度来看，那Dev Rel就是这样的，它需要把一个技术产品变成一个武器，然后交付到正确的战场上。这是很重要的，所以你造出来枪和炮，如果送错阵营，革命的结果只有失败。所以 DevRel 还需要有这样的感知。所以回过来说，因为我们刚才在说大家的职场发展，所以在今天加入 Web3 的话，其实这些能力构建的方向都是有很高的潜力的，今天进来都还处于很早期，给自己一个三年五年的发展，那就是一个非常有潜力的可以累积下来的东西。这是自己的核心资产。

From this perspective, Dev Rel is about turning a technical product into a weapon and delivering it to the right battlefield. This is very important, so if you make guns and cannons and send them to the wrong camp, the result of the revolution will only be failure. Therefore, DevRel also needs such perception. So, to return to what we were talking about before, everyone's career development, if you join Web3 today, these capabilities have great potential. It is still in the early stage today, give yourself a three to five-year development, which is a very potential accumulation. This is your core asset.

👧Afra

对，我也非常建议大家多用 Twitter 去宣传自己的技术，以及把自己对一些技术的感想，技术的理解都写下来，我觉得写作能力还有你的表达能力，以及描述技术的能力，这种非常抽象的语言能力和概括能力是特别重要的。大家想要上船的话，不仅要写好代码，也需要能非常有条理地把代码讲出来。

I highly recommend that everyone use Twitter to promote their technical skills and write down their thoughts, understanding and insights about the technology. Writing ability, expression and the ability to describe technology are very important. If you want to get ahead, it is not only necessary to write good code, but also to be able to explain it in a well-organized manner.

👦Wenqing Yu

我非常认同，尤其我们参加了很多黑客松，我就发现这可能也是一部分亚洲背景的，尤其是这种技术背景的创始人面临的一个蛮大的挑战，反正我自己我觉得是有的。

I fully agree, especially after participating in many hackathons, I found that this may also be a part of the Asian background, especially the founders with a technical background face a huge challenge, anyway I personally feel that there is.

你知道在黑客松上面有遇到那种大学刚刚毕业的或者很多大学生，他跟你讲自己的技术的时候，他很聪明，上来先给你讲场景，他们不是说你如果解决某一个具体的问题的时候，我这个技术好在哪，就开始讲自己的差异性。他是给你构建一个非常宏大的场景，让你知道说这一个小小的可能就跟你讲一个比如说账户抽象的一个小的 hacker，但是他告诉你说这个事情我后面可以做这样做那样的事情，让你一直跟着他的思想在走，会调动你的关注力。

At hackathons, you come across many newly graduated students or undergraduates who are very intelligent in their technical presentations. They don't just tell you how their technology can solve a specific problem, but they give you a big picture and explain how a small hack, like account abstraction, can lead to further opportunities. They keep your attention by guiding your thinking.

像这样的表达方式和表达能力，我觉得我们是欠缺的。回过来像你刚才说到的，我们每天比如说每一段时间在 Twitter 上，或者说像在 Mirror 上做一些发布一些东西，学会对社区去表达，学会表达自己的一些内在的想法，把它变成一个更容易沟通的材料，我觉得这个是非常有价值的。

I think we are lacking in such expression methods and expression capabilities. Coming back to what you just said, for example, posting on Twitter every day or publishing something on Mirror, learning to express to the community, learning to express their own inner thoughts, and turning it into a more communicable material, I think this is very valuable.

👧Afra

我们说了第一步、冷启动，以及船舶使用守则之后，我还想跟老余聊一下这次发生在Web3，甚至更大层面的 FTX 的垮台。我不知道你身边有多少朋友受到了 FTX 垮台的冲击。在这次垮台之后，很多人以及传统金融行业好像也是对 Web3 抛来了一种 “我早就告诉你这是一场骗局” 这样的白眼或者质疑。能不能跟 Web3 Revolution 的听众讲一讲，你观察到 FTX 这次的垮台对这个行业带来的冲击呢。

After discussing the first step and cold start, as well as the ship use rules, I also want to talk to Mr. Yu about the collapse of Web3, and even the larger scale of FTX. I don't know how many friends around you were affected by the collapse of FTX. After this collapse, many people and even the traditional financial industry seem to have thrown a "I told you it was a scam" kind of disdain or doubt at Web3. Could you tell the listeners of Web3 Revolution what impact you observed the collapse of FTX had on this industry?

👦Wenqing Yu

我觉得在讲这个 FTX 的事件之前，其实差不多时间还发生了另外一件事情，就是有一个人攻击了 Curve 在 Arweave 里面的池子。他应该是想击穿 Arweave 的 Curve 的池子，逼迫他被强行清算，然后从中获利。我为什么先提到这个事情，然后再说 FTX？因为 FTX 发生这件事情其实也是有一个小的 trigger 的，我们可以看到比如说是因为推特上有了一些 FUD 以后，这个事情开始不断发酵，但是问题在于 FTX 的问题是确实存在的，所以是有势能在里头的。

I think before talking about the FTX event, another thing happened around the same time, which was that someone attacked the Curve pool on Arweave. He must have wanted to break through the Curve pool on Arweave and force him to be liquidated and then make a profit from it. Why did I mention this before talking about FTX? Because there was a small trigger in FTX. We can see that after some FUD on Twitter, this thing started to ferment, but the problem with FTX was that it was real, so there was energy in it.

我觉得这里面我有两个 insight，第一个就是说我们认为存在的风险对吧？就是我们从逻辑上推导出来的很多风险，今天是选择无视的，觉得这个问题逻辑上是存在的，但实际上什么时候发生不知道，发生在谁头上不知道，而且那么多雷对吧？遍地都是雷，为什么一定这个雷爆炸？所以这是人类一个共性的偏见造成的。

I think I have two insights here. The first is about the risks we assumed. Today, we chose to ignore the risks that we logically deduced. We don't know when they will happen, who they will happen to, and why this particular risk has to be triggered among so many risks everywhere. This is caused by a common human bias.

那么第二个 insight 的结论是什么？如果我们从逻辑上推导出来已经有这样的问题，那么在你的自己的风险评估里面，你一定要做好定价，很多时候风险的价格收敛，不是说每天或者每分钟每个ticker都在收敛的，很多风险它是比如说1年2年3年甚至5年不会爆，然后突然一爆。这是一个在更大周期上的收敛的必然事件而已。所以说我们不要在大的周期里面把自己置于风险侧。

What is the conclusion of the second insight? If we deduce logically that such a problem already exists, then in your own risk assessment, you must make sure to price it appropriately. Risk prices often converge, not every day or every minute for every ticker, but many risks will not burst for one, two, three, or even five years and then suddenly explode. This is an inevitable event of convergence in a larger cycle. Therefore, we should not put ourselves on the risk side in a large cycle.

另外一个我觉得，这对行业来说会有什么样的影响？我觉得其实是一件蛮好的事情。圈外人会有 “I told you so” 这样的话语，我觉得其实你完全可以忽略，为什么？因为这样的话语，第一没有什么影响力，它也许具有传播性，它没有什么影响力，因为它在逻辑上站不住脚，就是说它不会影响到那些真正有判断力的人。当然可以影响到那些听风就是雨的人，但是那又怎么样呢？那些人也没有什么必要去跟他去 argue，我觉得这是一个。

What kind of impact would this have on the industry? I think it is actually a good thing. There will be people outside the circle who would say "I told you so," but I think you can just ignore them. Why? Because these words lack any substantial influence. They might be spreadable, but they don't have any power because they don't stand up logically. Of course, they might affect those who believe anything they hear, but so what? There is no need to argue with them. I think that is it.

第二个我觉得值得让我们深思的是，这些风险之所以还存在，本身影响的，实际上反而是那些跟被 “I told you so」影响到的人是一类的。

The second thought-provoking point is that these risks still exist and the people who are really affected are the same as those who are "I told you so" affected.

👧Afra

因为他都是搞中心化的是吧？

Is he mostly focused on centralization?

👦Wenqing Yu

对。是因为你觉得它的风险你可以躲过对吧？反正不一定是你。

但是我觉得说得太多也不太好，因为我也知道身边也有些朋友最后在 FTX 亏损了，我觉得这件事其实从短期来看对行业来说是很痛心的，因为它暴雷的这件事情确实对行业短期的声誉造成了非常大的影响，而且给很多的不管是个人还是组织，还有一些像项目方或者基金都造成了很大的损失，我觉得这对行业短期来说是非常负面的。

Do you think you can escape the risk? Anyway, it may not be you. 

However, I think it's not good to talk too much about it because I know some of my friends have suffered losses in FTX. In my opinion, this is really heartbreaking for the industry in the short term, because the flash crash has had a very negative impact on the industry's short-term reputation, and caused great losses to many individuals, organizations, projects and funds. I think this is very negative for the industry in the short term.

但我觉得长期来看，这不一定是一件坏事，因为大家知道说风险今天不收敛，但是总有一天会收敛。所以这就更让我们坚定说为什么交易所的数据一定要透明，或者说不一定说完全要披露对吧？但是你要有一个机制，比如说我们之前还有一个小的局在讨论是不是可以用ZK？你可以在不披露你的哪个地址存有多少钱的情况下，但是我们可以去验证你最后可以access这些钱，就是资金是不是达到了你相对应的用户托管的体量，这些手段其实技术上都很成熟。

但我觉得因为大家觉得不重要，所以大家不会去逼迫交易所去做这件事情。但最后用户的脚都是可以投票的，对吧？你投了 Uniswap，Uniswap 就可以更成长。你投了那些更加透明的中心化交易所，那些不透明的中心化交易所自然就会有更多的一些紧迫感。所以说也不要完全靠抱怨，我们还是要用自己的脚来做一些事情。

I think in the long run, this may not be a bad thing as everyone knows that risk can be contained eventually. That's why we can firmly believe in the transparency of exchange data, or at least having some sort of mechanism for that. For example, we discussed earlier if we can use ZK to verify that the funds are accessible to the corresponding user without disclosing their address or the amount. This technology is mature enough. 

However, people don't think it is important enough so they don't bother to push the exchange to do it. But ultimately, users can vote with their feet and invest in Uniswap, or more transparent centralized exchanges, thus giving the less transparent ones more pressure. So, instead of just complaining, we can still do something with our feet.

👧Afra

对，然后还有人就是这种更加坚定的去中心化信仰者说，这种中心化交易所的垮塌反而是好事情，因为更让大家坚定了说你的资产应该管理在你的钱包里面，而不是把它放在一个这种中心化的平台当中。因为一个本质上是去中心化的行业，却大量的在中心化交易所上交易，这看起来可能是一个非常矛盾的事情，所以有一些人马上说好事，FTX 垮台是好事。

👦Wenqing Yu

对，我觉得不能说是好事，这样肯定会伤到一些同行，或者说友军的感受。因为我觉得去中心化的程度是一个光谱，它也不是说有一根红线的。而且FTX发生这件事情，我估计行业里面很多人也都是蛮震惊的，因为从它的体量和名声来说，都不应该是干这样的事情的水平，或者说确实超过了很多的人的预期，这当然也给我们一个警醒，就是说不要过度信任这个行业里面很多没有办法验证的事情。

Yes, then there are those with a more firm belief in decentralization who say that the collapse of these centralized exchanges is actually a good thing, as it reinforces the idea that your assets should be managed in your own wallet, rather than being placed on a centralized platform. It may seem contradictory that an inherently decentralized industry trades heavily on centralized exchanges, so some people immediately say that the collapse of FTX is a good thing.

👧Afra

很多人就说这只不过是一个这种中心化金融的失败，而不是去中心化金融的失败。

Many people say that this is merely a failure of centralized finance, not decentralized finance.

👦Wenqing Yu

那是必然，大部分行业的不管是意见领袖，还是有判断力的人都很清楚这个逻辑。这并不是去中心化的问题。

That is a given, most industries' opinion leaders, as well as those with judgement, are well aware of this logic. It is not an issue of decentralization.

👧Afra

没错，下一个问题我其实蛮想问，作为一个从业者，你认为接下来 Web3 的形态会是怎样的？你是以怎样以自己做项目的方式，去创建这种未来的 Web3 的形态的？

That's right, the next question I really wanted to ask is, as a practitioner, what do you think the next form of Web3 will be like? How do you create the form of the future Web3 through the way you do your own projects?

👦Wenqing Yu

其实不能说预测，但是我们也会判断，刚才说到我们还是有一个自己的公式的，对吧？看看今天这个世界有哪些现有机制解决不了的事情，但是可以通过科技和社会的推革命推动来完成的。

It is not a prediction, but we can make a judgment. We have our own formula, right? Let's take a look at the things in today's world that existing mechanisms can't solve, but can be completed through technological and social reform.

可以看到 3~5 年之内会有一些比较明确的东西。比如从2015年、2017年，到 2020 年到再下一次，会越来越往应用端去走。也就是说越来越让普通的用户或者说更加普通的用户可以触达到web3带来的好处，而这个方向的结果就是应用端，或者是更加中间件端的这些产品会更有机会。

举个例子，比如说我们看到现在行业里面有很多 Web3 的 C 端产品，他们的方向是蛮不错的，比如说在数据主权数据身份，就是数字主权数字身份，比如说基于用户的这种链上的可验证的行为，来给他冠以一些权益或者说信用相关的，我觉得这是有机会的。

We can see that in the next 3-5 years there will be some clear trends. For example, from 2015, 2017 to 2020 and beyond, there will be a move towards the application side. This means that more and more ordinary users will be able to access the benefits of web3, and this direction will result in more opportunities for application-side or middleware products. 

For example, we can see many web3 C-end products in the industry. Their direction is pretty good. For example, data sovereignty and identity, digital sovereignty and digital identity, and user-based verifiable behavior on the chain to grant them certain rights or credit-related rights. I think this has potential.

然后还有一种类型，能够把 Web2 的很多的依然存未来会存在的场景，通过web3的要素，比如说可验证，可信任的本质来为他们赋能的这种类型的应用也会很有价值。然后第三就是可以更好的利用数据的互操作性的。这个在 Web2 很难想象。我们可以这么说，就是说 Web2 最好的数据互操作性的，就是把后面的那种数据的黑市的交易的这种操作性跑到一边的话，我们可以看到最好的互操作性就是Google Authentication对吧？到每个平台都可以用谷歌授权，就这样了。比如说 Tinder 是没有办法用 Facebook 数据来获客，来帮你做推荐的。但这件事情在 Web3 是一个不要太自然的事情，但是今天还没有很好的 C 端的产品出来，所以我觉得下一个周期是到了一个爆发点。

Another type of application that could be valuable is one which takes many of the existing Web2 scenarios that will still exist in the future and enables them with Web3 elements such as verifiability and trustworthiness. The third is the improved inter-operability of data. This is difficult to imagine in Web2. We could say that the best inter-operability of data in Web2 is to put the data black market transactions aside, and the best inter-operability is Google Authentication, right? It can be used on every platform. For example, Tinder cannot use Facebook data to acquire customers and do recommendations. However, this will be a natural thing in Web3, but there are not yet good C-end products, so I think the next cycle will be a bursting point.

第二个我觉得，今天对数据的使用还是太过早期。因为数据从 Web2 到 Web3 以后，因为可验证的这件事情，实际上让它可以承载了更多的东西。就是 Web2 主要还是信息撮合这件事情。

I feel that the use of data today is still too early. With the transition from Web2 to Web3, due to the verifiability of things, it has actually been able to carry more things. Web2 mainly facilitates the exchange of information.

但在 Web3 里，数据本身可以是资产，可以是权益，可以是信用，甚至可以是你的某一种身份的描述性的代名词。对，所以这些东西的后面其实可以产生大量的数据应用的场景，今天还没有或者说还非常的少，然后这是第二个。

In Web3, data itself can be an asset, a right, credit, or even a descriptive pronoun for one of your identities. That is why these things can generate a lot of data application scenarios that are still very few today. This is the second.

最后还有一个我认为也蛮有意思的，为什么我反对说简单地把 Web2 的对立 Web3的对立面说成是web2的公司呢？实际上是因为今天web2有很多的要素，不是为web2，未来也不一定只为web2服务。比如说人工智能，比如说大数据，对吧？

Finally, there's something I find quite interesting - why do I oppose the idea of simply equating Web2 companies to the opposition of Web3? In reality, Web2 today has many elements which are not only for Web2 and may not be only serving Web2 in the future. For example, artificial intelligence, big data, right?

今天在web3有一个极大的痛苦，就是用户体验上觉得我们的产品都太过脑残。这是我听到的客户反馈最激烈的，说你们的产品也太脑残了对吧？做那么多的内容，怎么没有一个好的推荐，好的分流的东西，对吧？你们做那么多的社交对吧？都投了那么多钱，怎么没有一个好的推荐的产品？

然后我今天到web3上面去，想要找到一个靠谱的用户，就是做社交发现这件事情，对吧？还要还要跑到opensea上去看他的 NFT跑到可能比如说Nansen或者0x上面去看他的资金的流向。太麻烦了，能不能有更好的办法。我觉得这些都是因为我们对传统的已经成熟的技术的应用还不够造成的。所以我觉得下一个很重要的价值就很重要的趋势就是web2-3的技术的代理，比如说云服务，今天云服务其实非常的成熟，能不能把这些云服务的技术带到Web3的场景里面。

Today on web3 there is a great pain point which is that users feel our products are too brainless. This is the most intense feedback I heard from customers, saying your products are too brainless, right? We do so much content, why isn't there a good recommendation or a good routing, right? You do so much socializing, put in so much money, why isn't there a good recommendation product? 

Then today I went to web3, looking for a reliable user to do social discovery. Right? Also have to go to OpenSea to see his NFT and maybe go to Nansen or 0x to see his capital flow. Too troublesome, can there be a better way? I think these are all caused by the fact that we don't apply traditional mature technologies well enough. So I think the next important trend is the proxy of web2-3 technology, such as cloud services. Actually, cloud services are very mature today, can these cloud services technologies be brought into the web3 scene?

👧Afra

老余要不要介绍一下，你现在在做的一个非常有趣的项目是干什么的？

What is the interesting project that you are currently working on?

👦Wenqing Yu

那就借你这个平台的机会给大家介绍一下 KNN3 Network。

KNN3 Network 实际上是做一个大家可以理解为我们是一个基于多链用户数据的数据中间层。我们不仅做数据聚合、数据产品封装的事情，我们也基于这些多链的用户行为数据之上封装一些模型服务，比如说一些基础算法类的，或者是利于开发者再进一步去开发更好的算法的一些基础设施，比如说像图谱数据、动态图谱之类的。

如果你要去做一个，比如说像推荐算法做 GNN 的机器学习，可以基于KNN3今天的图谱来做，或者说比如说像我们的标签，标签服务、动态标签。要去监控任何一条链上的用户有没有发生某个行为或者参与某个事件，可以通过我们的标签服务来监控等等。KNN3 Network 实际上更像一个多链的数据和算法服务的中间件。

Taking this platform as an opportunity, let me introduce KNN3 Network. 

KNN3 Network is actually a data middle layer based on multi-chain user data. We not only do data aggregation and product packaging, but also package some model services based on these multi-chain user behavior data, such as some basic algorithm classes and some basic infrastructure that are conducive to developers to further develop better algorithms, such as graph data and dynamic graph, etc. 

If you want to do something like GNN machine learning for recommendation algorithms, you can do it based on KNN3's graph today, or our tags, label services and dynamic tags. To monitor whether a user on any chain has taken certain actions or participated in certain events, you can use our label service to monitor, etc. KNN3 Network is actually more like a middleware of multi-chain data and algorithm services.

👧Afra

对，然后如果各位更有兴趣去了解更多关于 KNN3 的内容的话，可以关注 KNN3 的推特账号 @KNN3Network，然后网站是 knn3.xyz。老余还有什么别的想补充的吗？或者是没有提到的，然后如果想想想聊的话，你就可以直接说，然后我们之后把它剪到前面就行。

Yes, and if any of you are interested in learning more about KNN3, you can follow the KNN3 Twitter account @KNN3Network, and the website is knn3.xyz. Does Old Yu have anything else to add? Or anything that hasn't been mentioned yet? And if you'd like to talk about it, you can just say so and we can cut it in earlier.

👦Wenqing Yu

我觉得说了很多东西了，非常感谢 Afra 今天的邀请，也希望 Web3 Revolution 可以不断输出一些有意思和有价值的 insights，我觉得这个行业一半需要技术革新，另外一方面需要思想的革新。我们需要不断的碰撞，所以我觉得这个平台是非常不错的。

I feel I have said a lot and I would like to thank Afra for the invitation today. I also hope Web3 Revolution can continuously output interesting and valuable insights. I think this industry requires technological innovation on one hand and mental innovation on the other. We need continuous collisions, so I think this platform is very good.

👧Afra

谢谢老余又再一次点题了，Web3 Revolution 是一场动态的革命，然后我们也希望能够和像老余这样优秀的创业者和行业 OG 对话。好，那就谢谢大家收听今天的播客，然后谢谢老余。

Thank you Mr. Yu for your insight once again. Web3 Revolution is an ever-evolving revolution, and we hope to have conversations with exceptional entrepreneurs and industry OG's, like Mr. Yu. Well, thank you all for tuning into today's podcast, and thank you, Mr. Yu.

👦Wenqing Yu

好的，非常感谢大家。

Thank you very much everyone.

👧Afra

欢迎大家关注我们的推特账号@w3revolution_io。我们会发一些之前的节目的recap和一些比较容易消化的行业内部的比较前沿的信息，也欢迎大家在Spotify、Apple Podcast以及小宇宙等泛用性播客户端订阅我们的播客，以后我们会有更多的中文以及英文内容带给大家。

Please follow our Twitter account @w3revolution_io. We will be posting recaps of our previous episodes and some of the more digestible, cutting-edge industry news. We also welcome you to subscribe to our podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcast, and other popular podcast apps. We will have more content in both Chinese and English for you in the future.

KNN3 Network is a one-stop Web3 User-centric DataFi solution for d/Apps and smart contracts. KNN3 allows d/Apps & smart contracts to interact with cross-platform user-centric data in multiple algo-friendly ways. 

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