注：所有资料均来自公开渠道，无任何投资建议。

Author：本文主要是由Sofadao的小伙伴扇子同学翻译，一方同学进行部分校对，感谢扇子、一方的付出。

Twitter: @sofadaoxyz

前情提要：此次内容来自2022年9月15日的一期播客访谈，DigiDaigaku创始人Gabriel Leydon和Patrick OShaughnessy探讨了F2P游戏产业现状、PFP类NFT发展进程、未来如何把web2领域十亿用户引入web3，以及目前DigiDaigaku和Limit Break所做的事情。

SofaDAO（@sofadaoxyz）认为此篇播客内容对于理解F2O模式以及DigiDaiguka的玩法有较大帮助，所以把播客内容全部分享出来，全篇中英文共3万多字，SofaDAO将其分为上下两篇发表，上篇主要聊了F2P游戏行业情况和变化、F2O新模式的意义，NFT带来的转变，以及PFP NFT的演变等。由于翻译水平有限，部分中文翻译可能不是百分百精准，如果英文好的小伙伴也可直接读英文部分。

另外，SofaDAO近期将会开放F2O社区，详细内容请关注 @sofadaoxyz 官方Twitter信息。

播客链接：

https://www.joincolossus.com/episodes/28317960/leydon-the-third-wave-of-nfts?tab=transcript

以下，Enjoy!

[00:01:38] Patrick: My guest today is Gabe Leydon, whose episode last year was one of our most popular ever. Gabe has spent the last 20 years designing video games and is one of the most original thinkers I know. He was the co-founder of Machine Zone, which pioneered free-to-play hits like Mobile Strike and Game of War. Over the past year, he has been in stealth mode building a Web 2.0 meets Web 3.0 video game company called Limit Break, which is founded on a brand new business model that he calls free-to-own. We dive into his vision for the future of gaming, how it could onboard a billion users onto the Ethereum network and why the LTVs of crypto gamers are so far higher than those of their Web 2.0 counterparts. Please enjoy this great conversation with Gabe Leydon.

• Patrick(主持人):我今天的嘉宾是 Gabe Leydon，去年采访他的那集播客是我们有史以来最受欢迎的一集。 Gabe 在过去的 20 年里一直在设计电子游戏，是我认识的最具原创性的思想家之一。他是 Machine Zone 的联合创始人，该公司开创了 Mobile Strike 和 Game of War 等F2P（free-to-play，免费玩）游戏。在过去的一年里，他一直在秘密地建立一家名为 Limit Break 的 Web 2.0 到 Web 3.0 电子游戏公司，该公司建立在一种全新的商业模式之上，他称之为F2O（free-to-own，免费拥有）。我们深入探讨了他对游戏未来的愿景，它如何让 10 亿用户加入以太坊网络，以及为什么加密游戏玩家的生命周期价值（LTVs）远高于 Web 2.0 同行。请享受与 Gabe Leydon 的精彩对话。

[00:02:19] Patrick: All right, Gabe, so it's been almost exactly a year since our first conversation, which remains probably our biggest hit of the last year. In the intervening year, you've been building a new business called Limit Break.

• Patrick: 好的，Gabe，所以距离我们第一次谈话已经差不多整整一年了，这可能仍然是我们去年最成功的访谈。 在过去的一年中，您一直在建立一个名为 Limit Break 的新公司。

[00:02:31] Gabriel: Sorta thanks to you.

• Gabriel: 多亏了你。

[00:02:32] Patrick: Partly thanks to me and I'm an investor in the business. Yeah.

• Patrick: 是该部分感谢我，因为我是该业务的投资者。 是的。

[00:02:35] Gabriel: Not just because of that, because of the episode.

• Gabriel: 不只是因为那个，因为那一集。

[00:02:38] Patrick: Well I hope I had a small part. But we get to revisit a lot of those ideas because you basically been a learning machine in the year since building probably more actively than anyone else in the Web 3.0 space, which is ironic. So much talk and not much building. But you and the team have done a lot of innovating in that world. I think we need to start with this concept that you've just released to the public called free-to-own，one of the key builders and innovators in the free-to-play mobile video game space. And I think you believe pretty deeply that that era might be sun setting and free-to-own as a concept is the next wave of how games are built and monetized. So I'd love you to give or treat us on free-to-own what it means and why it's exciting to you.

• Patrick: 好吧，我希望我有一小部分。 但是我们要重新审视其中的很多想法，因为您在这一年中基本上是一台学习机器，而且在 Web 3.0 领域可能比其他任何人都更积极地构建。具有讽刺意味的是，Web 3.0太多的空谈，却没有什么构建。 但是你和你的团队在Web 3.0做了很多创新。 我认为我们需要从您刚刚向公众发布的F2O这个概念开始，作为F2P游戏领域的主要建设者和创新者之一， 我认为你深信F2P那个时代可能是夕阳西下，F2O作为一个概念将成为游戏如何构建和货币化的下一波浪潮。

• 因此，我希望您告诉我们F2O意味着什么以及为什么它对您来说令人兴奋。

[00:03:19] Gabriel: Well, it's the next level of free, first of all. I can definitely talk about this subject probably like 30 minutes straight. But first of all, the reason free-to-play took off was because of piracy. They were making PC games and Nexon was tired of getting their games pirated. So they said, "Let's just give our game away free." That was the beginning of free-to-play. And it was attractive to gamers who had to pay up front for a game. That's why they were pirating in the first place because they didn't want to. So they said, "Well look, now I'm going to just try this." So the term free-to-play, what it means is you're free-to-play it. You can play it whenever you want. It doesn't cost you anything to play it. You just download it and play it. That's a big step in distribution, player sentiment. They're very happy that the game is free, but then when they play the game, they start buying items. Essentially, that's what happens. There's items stores, there's virtual currency stores and they have to buy those. So the early criticism of free-to-play was, especially by people who didn't understand it, they said, "Well the game isn't really free because you have to buy upgrades inside the game. So it's not really free." But of course that didn't really matter to anybody. And now vast majority of the business is free-to-play, soon to be all of it.

• Gabriel：嗯，首先，F2O是F2P的升级，是“免费”的升级。我绝对可以连续 30 分钟谈论这个话题。但首先，F2P游戏起飞的原因是盗版，当时，Nexon（韩国游戏公司，译者注）他们正在制作 PC 游戏，但厌倦了他们的游戏被盗版，所以他们说，“让我们免费赠送我们的游戏吧。”那是F2P游戏的开始。对于必须为游戏预付费的游戏玩家来说，这很有吸引力。这就是为什么他们要盗版，因为他们不想给游戏预付费。所以他们说，“好吧，看，现在我要试试这个。”所以F2P游戏，它的意思是你可以免费玩它，您可以随时玩，玩游戏不需要任何费用，您只需下载并开始玩即可。这是游戏分发和玩家情绪方面的一大进步。他们很高兴游戏是免费的，但是当他们玩游戏时，他们开始购买物品。本质上，这就是发生的事情。有物品商店，有虚拟货币商店，他们必须购买这些。所以早期对F2P游戏的批评是，特别是那些不理解它的人，他们说，“好吧，游戏并不是真正免费的，因为你必须在游戏内购买升级。所以它不是真正免费的。 "但是，事物的发展不依赖任何人的观点，有他自己的规律。现在，绝大多数游戏都是F2P，很快就会实现全部都是F2P。

So the next step in all of that is we have these items in the store that we sell to people in free-to-play. They're all Web 2.0 locked on a server and the developer completely controls them and they decide basically everything about those items. So you have to buy them and then you hope that they remain relevant. So the next step is free-to-own, which is essentially an extension on free-to-play, except we move what's free a step further. It's not just the game that's free now, you can get virtual items that could potentially have value before you even play the game. So we're abstracting the items that everyone's paying for already. So 120 billion a year of items are sold essentially every year on mobile phones. Now we say, okay, not only is the game free, you can download and play it, but before you do it, here's some important items in the game. So now the players have ownership and it's a Web 3.0 item, it's not a Web 2.0 item. So they don't have to pay for the game, they don't have to pay for the item. Now they're incentivized. They're like, "I hope this game does well. I have this item. It's a rare item, it's a provable, one of one item in a game and if this game takes off, maybe other people will want it from me."

• 因此，接下来要说的是，我们所有向F2P游戏玩家出售的在游戏商店里这些物品，都是锁定在Web 2.0的服务器上的，开发人员完全控制它们，它们基本上决定了这些物品的一切。所以你必须购买它们，然后你希望它们保持相关性。因此下一步是F2O，本质上是F2P游戏的扩展。实际上，我们将免费的东西更进一步，现在不仅免费玩游戏，您甚至可以在玩游戏之前获得可能有价值的虚拟物品。因此，我们正在抽象出每个人都已经为之付费的项目。因此，基本上每年通过手机销售的游戏虚拟商品有1200 亿美元。现在我们说，好吧，游戏不仅是免费的，你可以下载并玩它，但在你开始之前，这里有一些游戏中的重要物品。所以现在玩家拥有所有权，因为它是 Web 3.0 里的物品，而不是 Web 2.0 中的物品。所以他们不必为游戏付费，也不必为物品付费。现在他们受到了激励。他们会说，“我希望这个游戏做得好。我有这个物品。它是一种稀有物品，它是可证明的，是游戏中的一个物品，如果这款游戏成功，也许其他人会想要从我这购买。 "

And I think the simple explanation of it is that we're taking the free-to-play economy, we're putting that on Web 3.0 and we're giving it out. And the reason why that's so important, and a lot of people in Web 3.0 criticized say, "Well people have done free stuff before." But they didn't brand it right, they didn't call it a category. They're not saying it's the next thing. They just did it. So what I'm trying to do here is say no, this is what's going to replace free-to-play. And how it replaces free-to-play is going to be impossible to just do the same old item store thing moving forward. And the opportunity is, I think I read today, there's only 60,000 daily wallets on Ethereum that own an NFT, that's 60,000 daily users is nothing. As a result, Web 3.0 gaming doesn't look like a thing. It looks fake in a way. You have one big game with Axie and it's big, it's had some issues but they've innovated a ton, but they've got something like 800,000 monthly players. It's respectable. And then the number two game has like 10,000. And the number 10 game has like a hundred. So basically it's not a thing, it's not a real thing.

• 我认为对F2O的简单解释是：我们将正在采用F2P游戏经济，放在 Web 3.0 上，并且我们将它分发出去。这之所以如此重要，而且很多 Web 3.0 中的批评者说，“人们以前做过免费的东西”。但他们没有把它打上正确的品牌，他们没有把它称为一个类别。他们并不是说这是下一个趋势。他们只是这样做了。所以我在这里要做的就是说不，这将取代F2P游戏。并且，如果只是仅仅继续做同样的旧物品商店的事情，F2O游戏取代F2P游戏将是不可能的。机会是，我想我今天了解到，以太坊上每天只有 60,000 个拥有 NFT 的钱包活跃，相对于游戏行业来说，60,000 个日活用户什么都算不上。因此，Web 3.0 游戏看起来不像是一回事。它在某种程度上看起来很假。 Axie 有一个大型游戏，它很大，它有一些问题，但他们进行了大量创新，但他们每月有大约 800,000 名玩家。这是可敬的。然后排名第二的游戏有10,000。而日活数字 10 的游戏有一百个。所以基本上它还没有成气候。

[00:07:03] Patrick: Web 3.0 gaming is not a thing.

• Patrick：Web 3.0 游戏还没有成气候。

[00:07:04] Gabriel: No, it's not a real thing yet. Not yet. It will be very shortly. And the reason why is because everybody's been saying do this land sale, buy this land sale and the land costs $7,000 because that's what it costs. When the game comes out, it's going to be great. And the player sitting there going, "Gosh, if the game is really big, my land is going to be worth 30 grand or something, right?" They're so excited about it versus just giving it to him for free, getting the exact same effect, the exact same effect, but more with them thinking this is awesome, this could actually be the next big game and I own a piece of this. And as a result, I think we go from 60,000 daily wallets to a billion very fast. Very, very fast.

• Gabriel：是的，还没有成气候。 还没有。 很快就会了。 原因是因为每个人都在说做这个土地销售，买这个土地销售，而土地成本是 7,000 美元，因为这就是它的成本。

• 当游戏出来时，它会很棒。 坐在那里的玩家会说，“天哪，如果游戏真的很大，我的土地价值 3 万什么的，对吧？” 他们对此非常兴奋，相对地，如果免费给他，将获得完全相同的效果，完全相同的效果，但更多的是他们认为这太棒了，这实际上可能是下一个大型游戏，我拥有一块这个。 结果，我认为我们从每天 60,000 个活跃钱包快速增加到 10 亿个。 非常非常快。

We just saw on Reddit, there was a controversy with their NFTs that they just put out. People are like, "Oh, we don't like NFTs." But they gave them for free and it changed the sentiment on Reddit overnight. There's still some people that don't like it, but overall the sentiment changed a ton when they didn't have to pay for it. Free-to-own games are how the world on boards to Ethereum. And once we get those 3 billion gamers on Ethereum, I think the gaming business goes from 200 billion a year to 6 trillion a year. Very quickly.

• 我们刚刚在 Reddit 上看到，有人对刚推出的 NFT 存在争议，他们会说，“哦，我们不喜欢 NFT。” 但当我们免费提供了他们NFT，它在一夜之间转变了在Reddit 上的情绪，仍然有一些人不喜欢它，但总体而言，当人们不必为此付费时，情绪发生了很大变化。 F2O游戏是将大量用户引入以太坊的方式。 一旦我们在以太坊上吸引了这 30 亿游戏玩家，我认为游戏业务将非常快地从每年 2000 亿美元增长到每年 6 万亿美元!

[00:08:27] Patrick: Why 6 trillion?

• Patrick：为什么是 6 万亿？

[00:08:29] Gabriel: Because I think it's a 30x, mainly because of the unrestricted nature of the payment rail that we're on. I think you and I talked about this before, but everything is throttled by paper money, $20 bills, $50 bills, $100 bills. Products are designed around those bills. 19.99, 49.99, the world designs products around these denominations because of the anchoring that was set. Think about it?When was that anchoring set? 70 years ago? Something like that. A hundred years ago. Who knows? Long time ago. And the dollar is worth 99% less.

• Gabriel：我认为它是 30 倍，主要是因为我们所使用的支付方式在以太坊将不受限制。 我想你和我之前讨论过这个问题，目前一切都被纸币、20 美元、50 美元、100 美元的钞票限制了。 产品是围绕这些账单设计的。19.99, 49.99，世界围绕这些面额设计产品，因为已经设置了锚定。 想想看？那个锚定是什么时候的？ 70年前？ 类似的东西。 一百年前。 谁知道？ 很久以前。 美元的价值减少了 99%。

[00:09:13] Patrick: There's no $10,000 bill. That would be the equivalent probably.

• Patrick：现在没有 10,000 美元面值的钞票， 如果有，那可能是等价于最初美元发行时的1美元。

[00:09:16] Gabriel: Yeah. But people still think in terms of $20 bills. They do. It's very important to have skews at 19.99. Anybody who makes products will tell you that. 99.99. So Ethereum is a huge reset on all of that. Now it's one ETH, one ETH. You see all these people talking about it this way. I say a different way. It's a different way of thinking. Also, the big change, the obvious change, oh, I don't know if it's so obvious actually, is if you go to the app store and you make a game, the biggest in-app purchase you can do is a hundred dollars. And that's limited by Apple. Google also just copied it, said, okay, we can only do a hundred dollars. Yet you see these Bored Apes selling for 2 million.

• Gabriel：是的。 但人们依然以20 美元的钞票来思考， 这是他们所做的。 在 $19.99 处有偏斜非常重要，任何制造产品的人都会告诉你这一点， $99.99也一样的原理。 所以以太坊是对所有这一切的巨大重置。现在是一个 ETH，一个 ETH。 你看现在所有这些人都是这样谈论的，这是一种与之前不同的思维方式。 还有一个很大、很明显的变化，也许也不是太明显，如果你去应用商店，你做一个游戏，你能做的应用内最大购买是一百美元 。这受到苹果的限制，谷歌也跟着做了，并且说，没办法，我们只能做一百美金。 然而，你看到无聊猿卖了 200 万美元。

If you take the average person and you show them an item in a game and you show them a Bored Ape, will they be able to tell a difference? No, they won't. All of that behavior that you're seeing on Ethereum with profile pictures this crazy, like $500,000, $2 million, whatever, all of that behavior is preexisting behavior. None of it is new. It's been around in games forever. People have been spending tremendous amount of money in games forever, more than they've ever spent on a Bored Ape or whatever, a lot more. But they did it through credit cards, they did it through in-app purchases. Ethereum is the equivalent to wire, an instant wiring system except with a different currency with Ethereum. And it allows people to express their behavior, their preexisting behavior in more upfront ways, like what you see with the PFPs.

• 如果你拿一个普通人来说，你给他们看一个游戏中的物品，然后给他们看一个无聊猿，他们能分辨出区别来吗？ 不，他们不会。 你在以太坊上看到的所有疯狂的PFP项目，比如 卖50w美元、200 万美元等等，所有这些行为都是既存行为。 没有一个是新的。 它一直存在于游戏中。 人们一直在游戏中花费大量金钱，比他们在无聊猿或其他项目上花费的钱还要多得多。 但他们是通过信用卡支付的，他们是通过在应用内购买的。 以太坊相当于电汇，一种即时汇款系统，只不过用的是以太坊货币。它允许人们以更直接的方式表达他们的行为，他们既存的行为，就像你在pfp中看到的那样。

And I think it's super important to recognize that none of this is new. None of it is new. It's been going on in games for 20 years. I've seen it up close. It's not new. Except now we have the ability to give you ownership of that item, which is super important. And the potential for desire for the item is worldwide. Everybody in the world could want that one item that is provably yours. What does it go to? A billion dollars? A billion dollar NFT? And it's hard to imagine, but what is it 500x more than what we're already seeing. We already saw 70 million NFT. We're at 14x more than what we've already seen with only 60,000 active wallets. Is that really that crazy?

• 而且我认为意识到这些都不是新事物是非常重要的。 没有一个是新的。 它已经在游戏中进行了 20 年。 我已经亲身经历过了， 除开我们现在能让你拥有该虚拟物品的所有权之外，这不是新事务，意识到这个非常重要。 潜在的对虚拟物品的渴望是全球性的，世界上每个人都可能想要那件可以证明是你的东西。 它将如何发展？ 十亿美元？ 十亿美元的 NFT？ 很难想象，但它比我们已经看到的多 500 倍。 我们已经看到了 7000 万个 NFT。 我们的数量是我们已经看到的只有 60,000 个活跃钱包的 14 倍。 真的有那么疯狂吗？

[00:11:41] Patrick: Can you just clearly define the preexisting behavior that you referenced that you've seen before? I want to make sure we fully described the thing being tapped into.

• Patrick：你能清楚地定义你引用的你以前看到过的预先存在的行为吗？ 我想确保我们充分描述了开发的东西。

[00:11:49] Gabriel: People are willing to spend a lot of money on virtual items. They're willing to do it. They love it, they like it. They do 120 billion every year on their mobile phone. And if you show someone an NFT and you show them the item they're buying the game, those people won't be able to tell the difference. But if they understood that one was property and one was not, they're going to prefer the property, obviously. And there's a lot of pushback in the gamer community around NFTs. You got to remember that $120 billion is generated probably about 8% of the people who play the games. It's a vast minority. And there's nothing anybody can tell me that would convince me that those people don't want an NFT. Why wouldn't they?

• Gabriel：人们愿意在虚拟物品上花很多钱。 他们愿意这样做。 他们喜欢它，他们真的非常喜欢它。 他们每年在手机上花费 1200 亿美元的虚拟物品。 如果你向某人展示 NFT，然后向他们展示他们购买游戏的物品，这些人将无法区分。 但如果他们明白一个是财产而另一个不是，他们显然会更喜欢财产。 围绕 NFT 的游戏玩家社区存在很多阻力。 你要记住，大约 8% 的玩游戏的人创造了 1200 亿美元。 这是极少数。 没有任何人可以告诉我，让我相信那些人不想要 NFT。 他们为什么不呢？

[00:12:32]Patrick: Can you say a little bit about this progression in the world of NFTs from PFPs, which is, we'll just call that the Bored Ape category to what you're calling clubs.

• Patrick：你能谈谈 PFP 在 NFT 世界中的发展进程吗，就是类似无聊猿一类的项目，你们称其俱乐部。

[00:12:40] Gabriel: They were the second version.

• Gabriel: 他们是V2版本。

[00:12:42]Patrick: CryptoPunks, maybe it was V1.

• Patrick: CryptoPunks也许是 V1版本。

[00:12:44] Gabriel: Yeah, CryptoPunks would be like a PFP version one, very early NFT. And then version two would be what we just went through, which is a lot of non-technical teams making NFTs and then getting a big audience around them and frankly not knowing what to do.

• Gabriel: 是的，CryptoPunks 就像一个 PFP V1 版本，非常早期的 NFT。 然后V2版将是我们刚刚经历的，这是许多非技术团队制作 NFT，然后在他们周围吸引了大量观众，坦率地说，他们不知道该怎么做。

[00:13:01]Patrick: Having all this capital and just sitting on them.

• Patrick: V2版本的项目拥有如此多的资产，但是他们只是坐在那，不知道要如何做。

[00:13:03] Gabriel: And they would just send people stickers and stuff. So they just literally, they would send you a sticker, a t-shirt, a fanny pack and they would say, "You're part of the club, you got the fanny pack, you got the sticker, you're now a part of the club." But just see that as what I would do if I didn't have any engineers either. I would also do that. But I think that phase is going to quickly go away and move into more, this is all software, this all virtual items.

• Gabriel：他们只会给人们寄贴纸之类的东西。 所以他们差不多，他们会给你一张贴纸，一件T恤，一个腰包，他们会说，“你是俱乐部的一员，你得到了腰包，你得到了贴纸，你现在是俱乐部的一部分。” 但是，如果我也没有任何工程师，我也会这样做。 但我认为这个阶段会很快消失并进入更多阶段，这都是软件，都是虚拟物品。

So there's a lot of unique things that you can do online with an NFT if you have a serious engineering team that is building new solutions. And of course all these things are going to plug into games and they'll be interoperable between other games. That'll be what NFTs are mainly for. Moving from one virtual universe to the next. Limit Break is pushing into that. My new company's pushing into that version three, which is constantly updating, always adding new features, creating new technology around the products. That's where I think everything's going. So NFTs are about to get a lot more exciting now too, because it's not just about getting a t-shirt or whatever. You're actually be able to interact with lots of different software with your NFT.

• 因此，如果您有一个认真的工程团队正在构建新的解决方案，那么您可以使用 NFT 在线完成许多独特的事情。 当然，所有这些东西都将插入到游戏中，并且它们可以在其他游戏之间进行互操作。 这将是 NFT 的主要用途。 从一个虚拟宇宙移动到下一个。 Limit Break正在推动这一点。 我的新公司正在推进第三版，它不断更新，不断添加新功能，围绕产品创造新技术。 这就是我认为一切都会发生的地方。 所以 NFT 现在也将变得更加令人兴奋，因为它不仅仅是获得一件 T 恤或其他东西。 你实际上可以通过 NFT 与许多不同的软件进行交互。

[00:14:17]Patrick: I want to get much deeper into that interactivity and what you've already done with the Digi NFTs. Before we do that, I just want to talk business model a little bit. So as I understand it, obviously one way to do this would be the land sale, you make seven grand a sale, the company makes a seven grand, straightforward.

• Patrick: 我想更深入地了解这种交互性以及您已经使用 Digi NFT 所做的事情。在谈论digi之前，我想先聊聊目前web3游戏的商业模式，我只想谈谈商业模式。据我了解，显然一种方法是土地出售，你卖七千，公司赚七千，直截了当。

[00:14:34] Gabriel: No, they make like 70 million in a day.

• Gabriel: 不，他们一天能赚 7000 万。

[00:14:36]Patrick: I mean per though.

• Patrick: 我的意思是每一单。

[00:14:37] Gabriel: And that's been pretty normal. I think it's actually been the biggest reason why Web 3.0 games haven't took off. Because it was normal to make 50 million in a day or a hundred. And it didn't just happen once. It happened, I don't know, maybe a hundred times. So there's something there. If you can do 50 million in a day, a hundred times in industry with only 60,000 people, really, maybe 100,000 at the peak, there's something there, but it's not going to exactly bring in the masses.

• Gabriel：这很正常。 我认为这实际上是 Web 3.0 游戏没有起飞的最大原因。 因为一天赚5000万或者一个亿是正常的。 而且它不只发生一次。 它发生了，我不知道，也许有一百次。 所以那里有问题。 如果你一天能做 5000 万，在只有 60,000 人的行业中做一百次，真的，高峰时可能有 100,000 人，这是有问题的，它不会真正带来大众。

[00:15:09]Patrick: We were talking about one example over text, six months ago or something. And I think my response was like, "This is so fucking dumb." And you were like, "Patrick, how many times do you need to see this before you understand the potential here? It's a tiny number of people with a crazy amount of money?"

• Patrick：我们在六个月前或其他什么时候通过讯息聊过一个例子。 我记得我的回复是，“这太他妈傻了。” 然后你说，“Patrick，在你真正理解这里蕴含的市场潜力之前，你还需要再看多少次这样的事情？那么少的人，却拥有那么多疯狂的钱？”

[00:15:22]Gabriel: It's not something that happened one time. It's something that happened 100 times.

• Gabriel：这不是发生一次的事情。 这是发生了100次的事情。

[00:15:25]Patrick: Yeah. In terms of onboarding a billion people, not 60,000 people, the role of free is critical, but then the business model gets pushed further down. So as I understand it, it is ongoing participation in the transaction volume, the dollar transaction volume for the company.

• Patrick：是的。 就 10 亿人而不是 60,000 人参与而言，免费的角色至关重要，但随后商业模式被进一步推低。 所以据我了解，它正在持续参与交易量，公司的美元交易量。

[00:15:41] Gabriel: So we're building free-to-play games, mobile free-to-play games. We can't do Web 3 on mobile yet. Do you think it'll eventually happen, but not yet. You have to build a bridge, first of all, so you have to build a free-to-play game, high quality, something that you can distribute worldwide, mobile free-to-play game. That's the only way to get scale. And you have to build a specific crypto version of that game to bridge those players over.

• Gabriel：所以我们正在开发F2P游戏、移动端的F2P游戏。 我们还不能在移动端上开发 Web 3。 你认为它最终会发生，但还没有。首先，必须建立一座桥梁，因此必须构建一个F2P游戏，高质量，可以在全球范围内分发的移动端F2P游戏。 这是获得规模的唯一途径。 你必须构建该游戏的特定加密版本来连接这些玩家。

[00:16:10]Patrick: In the browser?

• Patrick：在浏览器吗？

[00:16:11]Gabriel: No there's a PC. Axie has two-thirds of their traffic that's on side loaded Android apps. Honestly, I think Android is actually where a lot of the action's going to be, the Android and PC Mac.

• Gabriel：不，是在PC端。 Axie 有三分之二的流量来自侧面加载的 Android 应用程序。 老实说，我认为Android和PC Mac之间的竞争将会非常激烈。

[00:16:21] Patrick: All right. So we've got this model where you're building a traditional game that you've obviously spent your career building, traditional mobile, traditional free-to-play. And on the other side, building this set of NFT projects and almost like a game embedded in the NFTs that we'll talk about with Digi. But the business model for Limit Break is twofold then, it sounds like. The first part is traditional free-to-play. The second part is participating in some of the transaction dollar volume or E volume on the trading of the NFTs.

• Patrick：那么我们得到了这样的一个模型：一方面，你正在构建你之前职业生涯里面一直在做的事情：传统的F2P游戏、传统的移动端（手游）。 另一方面，你构建了正如我们马上要讨论的digi类似的NFT项目。 但听起来，Limit Break 的商业模式是双重的。 第一部分是传统的F2P游戏。 第二部分就是通过参与NFT的交易参与进web3中来。

[00:16:49]Gabriel: What's exciting about E is it's programmable. When I work with in-app purchase, Google in-app purchase API, I can't really do anything with it. This is programmable. So we've got a bunch of stuff coming that just hasn't even been done before. We just did something that works with the existing system, but there's no reason not to make new things. So there could be new token types, new business models. This is all programmable stuff.

• Gabriel：以太坊的令人兴奋之处在于它是可编程的。当我使用应用内购买、谷歌应用内购买 API 时，我真的无能为力。这是可编程的。所以我们有很多以前从未做过的东西即将到来。我们只是做了一些适用于现有系统的事情，但没有理由不做新的事情。所以可能会有新的代币类型、新的商业模式。这都是可编程的东西。

So it's a mistake to look at Ethereum and say, what it is today is what it's going to be. That's a huge mistake. You can do pretty much whatever you want. It's an imagination problem. And I think that's a lot of the reason why people discredit Web 3 is because one, they don't really know that much about it. Two, they don't consider the program ability of it, what you can change about it. They kind of just think about, "Well, here's what I would do with my existing game. And here's how I would put it on it with the stuff that everybody else does." And that's not right. That's not the right way to think about this at all. It's a lot more exciting than that.

• 所以看以太坊并说，今天的样子就是未来的样子，这是错误的。这是一个巨大的错误。你几乎可以做任何你想做的事。是想象力的问题。我认为这就是人们诋毁 Web 3 的主要原因之一，因为他们对 Web 3 的了解并不多。第二，他们不考虑它的程序能力，你可以改变它。他们只是想，“嗯，这就是我将如何使用我现有的游戏。这就是我将如何将它与其他人所做的东西一起使用。”这是不对的。这根本不是思考这个问题的正确方法。这比那个更令人兴奋。

注：所有资料均来自公开渠道，无任何投资建议。

Author：本文主要是由Sofadao的小伙伴扇子同学翻译，一方同学进行部分校对，感谢扇子、一方的付出。

Twitter: @sofadaoxyz

前情提要：此次内容来自2022年9月15日的一期播客访谈，DigiDaigaku创始人Gabriel Leydon和Patrick OShaughnessy探讨了F2P游戏产业现状、PFP类NFT发展进程、未来如何把web2领域十亿用户引入web3，以及目前DigiDaigaku和Limit Break所做的事情。

SofaDAO（@sofadaoxyz）认为此篇播客内容对于理解F2O模式以及DigiDaiguka的玩法有较大帮助，所以把播客内容全部分享出来，全篇中英文共3万多字，SofaDAO将其分为上下两篇发表，上篇主要聊了F2P游戏行业情况和变化、F2O新模式的意义，NFT带来的转变，以及PFP NFT的演变等。由于翻译水平有限，部分中文翻译可能不是百分百精准，如果英文好的小伙伴也可直接读英文部分。

另外，SofaDAO近期将会开放F2O社区，详细内容请关注 @sofadaoxyz 官方Twitter信息。

播客链接：

https://www.joincolossus.com/episodes/28317960/leydon-the-third-wave-of-nfts?tab=transcript

以下，Enjoy!

[00:01:38] Patrick: My guest today is Gabe Leydon, whose episode last year was one of our most popular ever. Gabe has spent the last 20 years designing video games and is one of the most original thinkers I know. He was the co-founder of Machine Zone, which pioneered free-to-play hits like Mobile Strike and Game of War. Over the past year, he has been in stealth mode building a Web 2.0 meets Web 3.0 video game company called Limit Break, which is founded on a brand new business model that he calls free-to-own. We dive into his vision for the future of gaming, how it could onboard a billion users onto the Ethereum network and why the LTVs of crypto gamers are so far higher than those of their Web 2.0 counterparts. Please enjoy this great conversation with Gabe Leydon.

• Patrick(主持人):我今天的嘉宾是 Gabe Leydon，去年采访他的那集播客是我们有史以来最受欢迎的一集。 Gabe 在过去的 20 年里一直在设计电子游戏，是我认识的最具原创性的思想家之一。他是 Machine Zone 的联合创始人，该公司开创了 Mobile Strike 和 Game of War 等F2P（free-to-play，免费玩）游戏。在过去的一年里，他一直在秘密地建立一家名为 Limit Break 的 Web 2.0 到 Web 3.0 电子游戏公司，该公司建立在一种全新的商业模式之上，他称之为F2O（free-to-own，免费拥有）。我们深入探讨了他对游戏未来的愿景，它如何让 10 亿用户加入以太坊网络，以及为什么加密游戏玩家的生命周期价值（LTVs）远高于 Web 2.0 同行。请享受与 Gabe Leydon 的精彩对话。

[00:02:19] Patrick: All right, Gabe, so it's been almost exactly a year since our first conversation, which remains probably our biggest hit of the last year. In the intervening year, you've been building a new business called Limit Break.

• Patrick: 好的，Gabe，所以距离我们第一次谈话已经差不多整整一年了，这可能仍然是我们去年最成功的访谈。 在过去的一年中，您一直在建立一个名为 Limit Break 的新公司。

[00:02:31] Gabriel: Sorta thanks to you.

• Gabriel: 多亏了你。

[00:02:32] Patrick: Partly thanks to me and I'm an investor in the business. Yeah.

• Patrick: 是该部分感谢我，因为我是该业务的投资者。 是的。

[00:02:35] Gabriel: Not just because of that, because of the episode.

• Gabriel: 不只是因为那个，因为那一集。

[00:02:38] Patrick: Well I hope I had a small part. But we get to revisit a lot of those ideas because you basically been a learning machine in the year since building probably more actively than anyone else in the Web 3.0 space, which is ironic. So much talk and not much building. But you and the team have done a lot of innovating in that world. I think we need to start with this concept that you've just released to the public called free-to-own，one of the key builders and innovators in the free-to-play mobile video game space. And I think you believe pretty deeply that that era might be sun setting and free-to-own as a concept is the next wave of how games are built and monetized. So I'd love you to give or treat us on free-to-own what it means and why it's exciting to you.

• Patrick: 好吧，我希望我有一小部分。 但是我们要重新审视其中的很多想法，因为您在这一年中基本上是一台学习机器，而且在 Web 3.0 领域可能比其他任何人都更积极地构建。具有讽刺意味的是，Web 3.0太多的空谈，却没有什么构建。 但是你和你的团队在Web 3.0做了很多创新。 我认为我们需要从您刚刚向公众发布的F2O这个概念开始，作为F2P游戏领域的主要建设者和创新者之一， 我认为你深信F2P那个时代可能是夕阳西下，F2O作为一个概念将成为游戏如何构建和货币化的下一波浪潮。

• 因此，我希望您告诉我们F2O意味着什么以及为什么它对您来说令人兴奋。

[00:03:19] Gabriel: Well, it's the next level of free, first of all. I can definitely talk about this subject probably like 30 minutes straight. But first of all, the reason free-to-play took off was because of piracy. They were making PC games and Nexon was tired of getting their games pirated. So they said, "Let's just give our game away free." That was the beginning of free-to-play. And it was attractive to gamers who had to pay up front for a game. That's why they were pirating in the first place because they didn't want to. So they said, "Well look, now I'm going to just try this." So the term free-to-play, what it means is you're free-to-play it. You can play it whenever you want. It doesn't cost you anything to play it. You just download it and play it. That's a big step in distribution, player sentiment. They're very happy that the game is free, but then when they play the game, they start buying items. Essentially, that's what happens. There's items stores, there's virtual currency stores and they have to buy those. So the early criticism of free-to-play was, especially by people who didn't understand it, they said, "Well the game isn't really free because you have to buy upgrades inside the game. So it's not really free." But of course that didn't really matter to anybody. And now vast majority of the business is free-to-play, soon to be all of it.

• Gabriel：嗯，首先，F2O是F2P的升级，是“免费”的升级。我绝对可以连续 30 分钟谈论这个话题。但首先，F2P游戏起飞的原因是盗版，当时，Nexon（韩国游戏公司，译者注）他们正在制作 PC 游戏，但厌倦了他们的游戏被盗版，所以他们说，“让我们免费赠送我们的游戏吧。”那是F2P游戏的开始。对于必须为游戏预付费的游戏玩家来说，这很有吸引力。这就是为什么他们要盗版，因为他们不想给游戏预付费。所以他们说，“好吧，看，现在我要试试这个。”所以F2P游戏，它的意思是你可以免费玩它，您可以随时玩，玩游戏不需要任何费用，您只需下载并开始玩即可。这是游戏分发和玩家情绪方面的一大进步。他们很高兴游戏是免费的，但是当他们玩游戏时，他们开始购买物品。本质上，这就是发生的事情。有物品商店，有虚拟货币商店，他们必须购买这些。所以早期对F2P游戏的批评是，特别是那些不理解它的人，他们说，“好吧，游戏并不是真正免费的，因为你必须在游戏内购买升级。所以它不是真正免费的。 "但是，事物的发展不依赖任何人的观点，有他自己的规律。现在，绝大多数游戏都是F2P，很快就会实现全部都是F2P。

So the next step in all of that is we have these items in the store that we sell to people in free-to-play. They're all Web 2.0 locked on a server and the developer completely controls them and they decide basically everything about those items. So you have to buy them and then you hope that they remain relevant. So the next step is free-to-own, which is essentially an extension on free-to-play, except we move what's free a step further. It's not just the game that's free now, you can get virtual items that could potentially have value before you even play the game. So we're abstracting the items that everyone's paying for already. So 120 billion a year of items are sold essentially every year on mobile phones. Now we say, okay, not only is the game free, you can download and play it, but before you do it, here's some important items in the game. So now the players have ownership and it's a Web 3.0 item, it's not a Web 2.0 item. So they don't have to pay for the game, they don't have to pay for the item. Now they're incentivized. They're like, "I hope this game does well. I have this item. It's a rare item, it's a provable, one of one item in a game and if this game takes off, maybe other people will want it from me."

• 因此，接下来要说的是，我们所有向F2P游戏玩家出售的在游戏商店里这些物品，都是锁定在Web 2.0的服务器上的，开发人员完全控制它们，它们基本上决定了这些物品的一切。所以你必须购买它们，然后你希望它们保持相关性。因此下一步是F2O，本质上是F2P游戏的扩展。实际上，我们将免费的东西更进一步，现在不仅免费玩游戏，您甚至可以在玩游戏之前获得可能有价值的虚拟物品。因此，我们正在抽象出每个人都已经为之付费的项目。因此，基本上每年通过手机销售的游戏虚拟商品有1200 亿美元。现在我们说，好吧，游戏不仅是免费的，你可以下载并玩它，但在你开始之前，这里有一些游戏中的重要物品。所以现在玩家拥有所有权，因为它是 Web 3.0 里的物品，而不是 Web 2.0 中的物品。所以他们不必为游戏付费，也不必为物品付费。现在他们受到了激励。他们会说，“我希望这个游戏做得好。我有这个物品。它是一种稀有物品，它是可证明的，是游戏中的一个物品，如果这款游戏成功，也许其他人会想要从我这购买。 "

And I think the simple explanation of it is that we're taking the free-to-play economy, we're putting that on Web 3.0 and we're giving it out. And the reason why that's so important, and a lot of people in Web 3.0 criticized say, "Well people have done free stuff before." But they didn't brand it right, they didn't call it a category. They're not saying it's the next thing. They just did it. So what I'm trying to do here is say no, this is what's going to replace free-to-play. And how it replaces free-to-play is going to be impossible to just do the same old item store thing moving forward. And the opportunity is, I think I read today, there's only 60,000 daily wallets on Ethereum that own an NFT, that's 60,000 daily users is nothing. As a result, Web 3.0 gaming doesn't look like a thing. It looks fake in a way. You have one big game with Axie and it's big, it's had some issues but they've innovated a ton, but they've got something like 800,000 monthly players. It's respectable. And then the number two game has like 10,000. And the number 10 game has like a hundred. So basically it's not a thing, it's not a real thing.

• 我认为对F2O的简单解释是：我们将正在采用F2P游戏经济，放在 Web 3.0 上，并且我们将它分发出去。这之所以如此重要，而且很多 Web 3.0 中的批评者说，“人们以前做过免费的东西”。但他们没有把它打上正确的品牌，他们没有把它称为一个类别。他们并不是说这是下一个趋势。他们只是这样做了。所以我在这里要做的就是说不，这将取代F2P游戏。并且，如果只是仅仅继续做同样的旧物品商店的事情，F2O游戏取代F2P游戏将是不可能的。机会是，我想我今天了解到，以太坊上每天只有 60,000 个拥有 NFT 的钱包活跃，相对于游戏行业来说，60,000 个日活用户什么都算不上。因此，Web 3.0 游戏看起来不像是一回事。它在某种程度上看起来很假。 Axie 有一个大型游戏，它很大，它有一些问题，但他们进行了大量创新，但他们每月有大约 800,000 名玩家。这是可敬的。然后排名第二的游戏有10,000。而日活数字 10 的游戏有一百个。所以基本上它还没有成气候。

[00:07:03] Patrick: Web 3.0 gaming is not a thing.

• Patrick：Web 3.0 游戏还没有成气候。

[00:07:04] Gabriel: No, it's not a real thing yet. Not yet. It will be very shortly. And the reason why is because everybody's been saying do this land sale, buy this land sale and the land costs $7,000 because that's what it costs. When the game comes out, it's going to be great. And the player sitting there going, "Gosh, if the game is really big, my land is going to be worth 30 grand or something, right?" They're so excited about it versus just giving it to him for free, getting the exact same effect, the exact same effect, but more with them thinking this is awesome, this could actually be the next big game and I own a piece of this. And as a result, I think we go from 60,000 daily wallets to a billion very fast. Very, very fast.

• Gabriel：是的，还没有成气候。 还没有。 很快就会了。 原因是因为每个人都在说做这个土地销售，买这个土地销售，而土地成本是 7,000 美元，因为这就是它的成本。

• 当游戏出来时，它会很棒。 坐在那里的玩家会说，“天哪，如果游戏真的很大，我的土地价值 3 万什么的，对吧？” 他们对此非常兴奋，相对地，如果免费给他，将获得完全相同的效果，完全相同的效果，但更多的是他们认为这太棒了，这实际上可能是下一个大型游戏，我拥有一块这个。 结果，我认为我们从每天 60,000 个活跃钱包快速增加到 10 亿个。 非常非常快。

We just saw on Reddit, there was a controversy with their NFTs that they just put out. People are like, "Oh, we don't like NFTs." But they gave them for free and it changed the sentiment on Reddit overnight. There's still some people that don't like it, but overall the sentiment changed a ton when they didn't have to pay for it. Free-to-own games are how the world on boards to Ethereum. And once we get those 3 billion gamers on Ethereum, I think the gaming business goes from 200 billion a year to 6 trillion a year. Very quickly.

• 我们刚刚在 Reddit 上看到，有人对刚推出的 NFT 存在争议，他们会说，“哦，我们不喜欢 NFT。” 但当我们免费提供了他们NFT，它在一夜之间转变了在Reddit 上的情绪，仍然有一些人不喜欢它，但总体而言，当人们不必为此付费时，情绪发生了很大变化。 F2O游戏是将大量用户引入以太坊的方式。 一旦我们在以太坊上吸引了这 30 亿游戏玩家，我认为游戏业务将非常快地从每年 2000 亿美元增长到每年 6 万亿美元!

[00:08:27] Patrick: Why 6 trillion?

• Patrick：为什么是 6 万亿？

[00:08:29] Gabriel: Because I think it's a 30x, mainly because of the unrestricted nature of the payment rail that we're on. I think you and I talked about this before, but everything is throttled by paper money, $20 bills, $50 bills, $100 bills. Products are designed around those bills. 19.99, 49.99, the world designs products around these denominations because of the anchoring that was set. Think about it?When was that anchoring set? 70 years ago? Something like that. A hundred years ago. Who knows? Long time ago. And the dollar is worth 99% less.

• Gabriel：我认为它是 30 倍，主要是因为我们所使用的支付方式在以太坊将不受限制。 我想你和我之前讨论过这个问题，目前一切都被纸币、20 美元、50 美元、100 美元的钞票限制了。 产品是围绕这些账单设计的。19.99, 49.99，世界围绕这些面额设计产品，因为已经设置了锚定。 想想看？那个锚定是什么时候的？ 70年前？ 类似的东西。 一百年前。 谁知道？ 很久以前。 美元的价值减少了 99%。

[00:09:13] Patrick: There's no $10,000 bill. That would be the equivalent probably.

• Patrick：现在没有 10,000 美元面值的钞票， 如果有，那可能是等价于最初美元发行时的1美元。

[00:09:16] Gabriel: Yeah. But people still think in terms of $20 bills. They do. It's very important to have skews at 19.99. Anybody who makes products will tell you that. 99.99. So Ethereum is a huge reset on all of that. Now it's one ETH, one ETH. You see all these people talking about it this way. I say a different way. It's a different way of thinking. Also, the big change, the obvious change, oh, I don't know if it's so obvious actually, is if you go to the app store and you make a game, the biggest in-app purchase you can do is a hundred dollars. And that's limited by Apple. Google also just copied it, said, okay, we can only do a hundred dollars. Yet you see these Bored Apes selling for 2 million.

• Gabriel：是的。 但人们依然以20 美元的钞票来思考， 这是他们所做的。 在 $19.99 处有偏斜非常重要，任何制造产品的人都会告诉你这一点， $99.99也一样的原理。 所以以太坊是对所有这一切的巨大重置。现在是一个 ETH，一个 ETH。 你看现在所有这些人都是这样谈论的，这是一种与之前不同的思维方式。 还有一个很大、很明显的变化，也许也不是太明显，如果你去应用商店，你做一个游戏，你能做的应用内最大购买是一百美元 。这受到苹果的限制，谷歌也跟着做了，并且说，没办法，我们只能做一百美金。 然而，你看到无聊猿卖了 200 万美元。

If you take the average person and you show them an item in a game and you show them a Bored Ape, will they be able to tell a difference? No, they won't. All of that behavior that you're seeing on Ethereum with profile pictures this crazy, like $500,000, $2 million, whatever, all of that behavior is preexisting behavior. None of it is new. It's been around in games forever. People have been spending tremendous amount of money in games forever, more than they've ever spent on a Bored Ape or whatever, a lot more. But they did it through credit cards, they did it through in-app purchases. Ethereum is the equivalent to wire, an instant wiring system except with a different currency with Ethereum. And it allows people to express their behavior, their preexisting behavior in more upfront ways, like what you see with the PFPs.

• 如果你拿一个普通人来说，你给他们看一个游戏中的物品，然后给他们看一个无聊猿，他们能分辨出区别来吗？ 不，他们不会。 你在以太坊上看到的所有疯狂的PFP项目，比如 卖50w美元、200 万美元等等，所有这些行为都是既存行为。 没有一个是新的。 它一直存在于游戏中。 人们一直在游戏中花费大量金钱，比他们在无聊猿或其他项目上花费的钱还要多得多。 但他们是通过信用卡支付的，他们是通过在应用内购买的。 以太坊相当于电汇，一种即时汇款系统，只不过用的是以太坊货币。它允许人们以更直接的方式表达他们的行为，他们既存的行为，就像你在pfp中看到的那样。

And I think it's super important to recognize that none of this is new. None of it is new. It's been going on in games for 20 years. I've seen it up close. It's not new. Except now we have the ability to give you ownership of that item, which is super important. And the potential for desire for the item is worldwide. Everybody in the world could want that one item that is provably yours. What does it go to? A billion dollars? A billion dollar NFT? And it's hard to imagine, but what is it 500x more than what we're already seeing. We already saw 70 million NFT. We're at 14x more than what we've already seen with only 60,000 active wallets. Is that really that crazy?

• 而且我认为意识到这些都不是新事物是非常重要的。 没有一个是新的。 它已经在游戏中进行了 20 年。 我已经亲身经历过了， 除开我们现在能让你拥有该虚拟物品的所有权之外，这不是新事务，意识到这个非常重要。 潜在的对虚拟物品的渴望是全球性的，世界上每个人都可能想要那件可以证明是你的东西。 它将如何发展？ 十亿美元？ 十亿美元的 NFT？ 很难想象，但它比我们已经看到的多 500 倍。 我们已经看到了 7000 万个 NFT。 我们的数量是我们已经看到的只有 60,000 个活跃钱包的 14 倍。 真的有那么疯狂吗？

[00:11:41] Patrick: Can you just clearly define the preexisting behavior that you referenced that you've seen before? I want to make sure we fully described the thing being tapped into.

• Patrick：你能清楚地定义你引用的你以前看到过的预先存在的行为吗？ 我想确保我们充分描述了开发的东西。

[00:11:49] Gabriel: People are willing to spend a lot of money on virtual items. They're willing to do it. They love it, they like it. They do 120 billion every year on their mobile phone. And if you show someone an NFT and you show them the item they're buying the game, those people won't be able to tell the difference. But if they understood that one was property and one was not, they're going to prefer the property, obviously. And there's a lot of pushback in the gamer community around NFTs. You got to remember that $120 billion is generated probably about 8% of the people who play the games. It's a vast minority. And there's nothing anybody can tell me that would convince me that those people don't want an NFT. Why wouldn't they?

• Gabriel：人们愿意在虚拟物品上花很多钱。 他们愿意这样做。 他们喜欢它，他们真的非常喜欢它。 他们每年在手机上花费 1200 亿美元的虚拟物品。 如果你向某人展示 NFT，然后向他们展示他们购买游戏的物品，这些人将无法区分。 但如果他们明白一个是财产而另一个不是，他们显然会更喜欢财产。 围绕 NFT 的游戏玩家社区存在很多阻力。 你要记住，大约 8% 的玩游戏的人创造了 1200 亿美元。 这是极少数。 没有任何人可以告诉我，让我相信那些人不想要 NFT。 他们为什么不呢？

[00:12:32]Patrick: Can you say a little bit about this progression in the world of NFTs from PFPs, which is, we'll just call that the Bored Ape category to what you're calling clubs.

• Patrick：你能谈谈 PFP 在 NFT 世界中的发展进程吗，就是类似无聊猿一类的项目，你们称其俱乐部。

[00:12:40] Gabriel: They were the second version.

• Gabriel: 他们是V2版本。

[00:12:42]Patrick: CryptoPunks, maybe it was V1.

• Patrick: CryptoPunks也许是 V1版本。

[00:12:44] Gabriel: Yeah, CryptoPunks would be like a PFP version one, very early NFT. And then version two would be what we just went through, which is a lot of non-technical teams making NFTs and then getting a big audience around them and frankly not knowing what to do.

• Gabriel: 是的，CryptoPunks 就像一个 PFP V1 版本，非常早期的 NFT。 然后V2版将是我们刚刚经历的，这是许多非技术团队制作 NFT，然后在他们周围吸引了大量观众，坦率地说，他们不知道该怎么做。

[00:13:01]Patrick: Having all this capital and just sitting on them.

• Patrick: V2版本的项目拥有如此多的资产，但是他们只是坐在那，不知道要如何做。

[00:13:03] Gabriel: And they would just send people stickers and stuff. So they just literally, they would send you a sticker, a t-shirt, a fanny pack and they would say, "You're part of the club, you got the fanny pack, you got the sticker, you're now a part of the club." But just see that as what I would do if I didn't have any engineers either. I would also do that. But I think that phase is going to quickly go away and move into more, this is all software, this all virtual items.

• Gabriel：他们只会给人们寄贴纸之类的东西。 所以他们差不多，他们会给你一张贴纸，一件T恤，一个腰包，他们会说，“你是俱乐部的一员，你得到了腰包，你得到了贴纸，你现在是俱乐部的一部分。” 但是，如果我也没有任何工程师，我也会这样做。 但我认为这个阶段会很快消失并进入更多阶段，这都是软件，都是虚拟物品。

So there's a lot of unique things that you can do online with an NFT if you have a serious engineering team that is building new solutions. And of course all these things are going to plug into games and they'll be interoperable between other games. That'll be what NFTs are mainly for. Moving from one virtual universe to the next. Limit Break is pushing into that. My new company's pushing into that version three, which is constantly updating, always adding new features, creating new technology around the products. That's where I think everything's going. So NFTs are about to get a lot more exciting now too, because it's not just about getting a t-shirt or whatever. You're actually be able to interact with lots of different software with your NFT.

• 因此，如果您有一个认真的工程团队正在构建新的解决方案，那么您可以使用 NFT 在线完成许多独特的事情。 当然，所有这些东西都将插入到游戏中，并且它们可以在其他游戏之间进行互操作。 这将是 NFT 的主要用途。 从一个虚拟宇宙移动到下一个。 Limit Break正在推动这一点。 我的新公司正在推进第三版，它不断更新，不断添加新功能，围绕产品创造新技术。 这就是我认为一切都会发生的地方。 所以 NFT 现在也将变得更加令人兴奋，因为它不仅仅是获得一件 T 恤或其他东西。 你实际上可以通过 NFT 与许多不同的软件进行交互。

[00:14:17]Patrick: I want to get much deeper into that interactivity and what you've already done with the Digi NFTs. Before we do that, I just want to talk business model a little bit. So as I understand it, obviously one way to do this would be the land sale, you make seven grand a sale, the company makes a seven grand, straightforward.

• Patrick: 我想更深入地了解这种交互性以及您已经使用 Digi NFT 所做的事情。在谈论digi之前，我想先聊聊目前web3游戏的商业模式，我只想谈谈商业模式。据我了解，显然一种方法是土地出售，你卖七千，公司赚七千，直截了当。

[00:14:34] Gabriel: No, they make like 70 million in a day.

• Gabriel: 不，他们一天能赚 7000 万。

[00:14:36]Patrick: I mean per though.

• Patrick: 我的意思是每一单。

[00:14:37] Gabriel: And that's been pretty normal. I think it's actually been the biggest reason why Web 3.0 games haven't took off. Because it was normal to make 50 million in a day or a hundred. And it didn't just happen once. It happened, I don't know, maybe a hundred times. So there's something there. If you can do 50 million in a day, a hundred times in industry with only 60,000 people, really, maybe 100,000 at the peak, there's something there, but it's not going to exactly bring in the masses.

• Gabriel：这很正常。 我认为这实际上是 Web 3.0 游戏没有起飞的最大原因。 因为一天赚5000万或者一个亿是正常的。 而且它不只发生一次。 它发生了，我不知道，也许有一百次。 所以那里有问题。 如果你一天能做 5000 万，在只有 60,000 人的行业中做一百次，真的，高峰时可能有 100,000 人，这是有问题的，它不会真正带来大众。

[00:15:09]Patrick: We were talking about one example over text, six months ago or something. And I think my response was like, "This is so fucking dumb." And you were like, "Patrick, how many times do you need to see this before you understand the potential here? It's a tiny number of people with a crazy amount of money?"

• Patrick：我们在六个月前或其他什么时候通过讯息聊过一个例子。 我记得我的回复是，“这太他妈傻了。” 然后你说，“Patrick，在你真正理解这里蕴含的市场潜力之前，你还需要再看多少次这样的事情？那么少的人，却拥有那么多疯狂的钱？”

[00:15:22]Gabriel: It's not something that happened one time. It's something that happened 100 times.

• Gabriel：这不是发生一次的事情。 这是发生了100次的事情。

[00:15:25]Patrick: Yeah. In terms of onboarding a billion people, not 60,000 people, the role of free is critical, but then the business model gets pushed further down. So as I understand it, it is ongoing participation in the transaction volume, the dollar transaction volume for the company.

• Patrick：是的。 就 10 亿人而不是 60,000 人参与而言，免费的角色至关重要，但随后商业模式被进一步推低。 所以据我了解，它正在持续参与交易量，公司的美元交易量。

[00:15:41] Gabriel: So we're building free-to-play games, mobile free-to-play games. We can't do Web 3 on mobile yet. Do you think it'll eventually happen, but not yet. You have to build a bridge, first of all, so you have to build a free-to-play game, high quality, something that you can distribute worldwide, mobile free-to-play game. That's the only way to get scale. And you have to build a specific crypto version of that game to bridge those players over.

• Gabriel：所以我们正在开发F2P游戏、移动端的F2P游戏。 我们还不能在移动端上开发 Web 3。 你认为它最终会发生，但还没有。首先，必须建立一座桥梁，因此必须构建一个F2P游戏，高质量，可以在全球范围内分发的移动端F2P游戏。 这是获得规模的唯一途径。 你必须构建该游戏的特定加密版本来连接这些玩家。

[00:16:10]Patrick: In the browser?

• Patrick：在浏览器吗？

[00:16:11]Gabriel: No there's a PC. Axie has two-thirds of their traffic that's on side loaded Android apps. Honestly, I think Android is actually where a lot of the action's going to be, the Android and PC Mac.

• Gabriel：不，是在PC端。 Axie 有三分之二的流量来自侧面加载的 Android 应用程序。 老实说，我认为Android和PC Mac之间的竞争将会非常激烈。

[00:16:21] Patrick: All right. So we've got this model where you're building a traditional game that you've obviously spent your career building, traditional mobile, traditional free-to-play. And on the other side, building this set of NFT projects and almost like a game embedded in the NFTs that we'll talk about with Digi. But the business model for Limit Break is twofold then, it sounds like. The first part is traditional free-to-play. The second part is participating in some of the transaction dollar volume or E volume on the trading of the NFTs.

• Patrick：那么我们得到了这样的一个模型：一方面，你正在构建你之前职业生涯里面一直在做的事情：传统的F2P游戏、传统的移动端（手游）。 另一方面，你构建了正如我们马上要讨论的digi类似的NFT项目。 但听起来，Limit Break 的商业模式是双重的。 第一部分是传统的F2P游戏。 第二部分就是通过参与NFT的交易参与进web3中来。

[00:16:49]Gabriel: What's exciting about E is it's programmable. When I work with in-app purchase, Google in-app purchase API, I can't really do anything with it. This is programmable. So we've got a bunch of stuff coming that just hasn't even been done before. We just did something that works with the existing system, but there's no reason not to make new things. So there could be new token types, new business models. This is all programmable stuff.

• Gabriel：以太坊的令人兴奋之处在于它是可编程的。当我使用应用内购买、谷歌应用内购买 API 时，我真的无能为力。这是可编程的。所以我们有很多以前从未做过的东西即将到来。我们只是做了一些适用于现有系统的事情，但没有理由不做新的事情。所以可能会有新的代币类型、新的商业模式。这都是可编程的东西。

So it's a mistake to look at Ethereum and say, what it is today is what it's going to be. That's a huge mistake. You can do pretty much whatever you want. It's an imagination problem. And I think that's a lot of the reason why people discredit Web 3 is because one, they don't really know that much about it. Two, they don't consider the program ability of it, what you can change about it. They kind of just think about, "Well, here's what I would do with my existing game. And here's how I would put it on it with the stuff that everybody else does." And that's not right. That's not the right way to think about this at all. It's a lot more exciting than that.

• 所以看以太坊并说，今天的样子就是未来的样子，这是错误的。这是一个巨大的错误。你几乎可以做任何你想做的事。是想象力的问题。我认为这就是人们诋毁 Web 3 的主要原因之一，因为他们对 Web 3 的了解并不多。第二，他们不考虑它的程序能力，你可以改变它。他们只是想，“嗯，这就是我将如何使用我现有的游戏。这就是我将如何将它与其他人所做的东西一起使用。”这是不对的。这根本不是思考这个问题的正确方法。这比那个更令人兴奋。